# ¡Viva España! Spain looking to indict Bushies ¡Olé! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440 "2009-03-31T15:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/161 "2009-04-25T12:57:16Z")
I still think it a diversionary tactic. Just something to draw attention away from their real problems. Much like Clinton used to do by firing a couple of cruise missiles when his personal issues were starting to get too much attention. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/162 "2009-04-25T13:18:20Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I still think it a diversionary tactic. Just something to draw attention away from their real problems. Much like Clinton used to do by firing a couple of cruise missiles when his personal issues were starting to get too much attention. You mean how the Republicans would ACCUSE him of doing that. Of course, they project their own vileness onto everyone else; THEY wouldn’t hesitate to murder people for political profit, so of course they assume Clinton did. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/163 "2009-04-25T13:33:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No. There are now “European” arrest warrants, but its very recent, only between some countries, and for a very limited set of crimes. In other cases, normal extradition rules apply. Here is some information on these new warrants: [http://ec.europa.eu/justice\_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj\_criminal\_extradition\_en.htm](http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj_criminal_extradition_en.htm) And reports on implementation: [http://ec.europa.eu/justice\_home/doc\_centre/criminal/doc/sec\_2005\_267\_en.pdf](http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/doc_centre/criminal/doc/sec_2005_267_en.pdf) [http://ec.europa.eu/justice\_home/doc\_centre/criminal/doc/com\_2005\_063\_en.pdf](http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/doc_centre/criminal/doc/com_2005_063_en.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/164 "2009-04-25T15:38:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What “liberal guilt” ? > > Assuming that is true, those police should be stripped of their position, and either executed or tossed in prison for life without parole. And if they flee the country they should be hunted down. > (big snip) Man, what a nice, pampered life you must live; never having experienced (or imagined) the fear of going to a police station, even if you are the accuser, and knowing that you could be “lost” for 3 or 4 days…and this is in a big city. I envy you..you must still be hoping for Santa Claus to show up and eat the cookies. Real life is bad, horrible for most people. Thay know it’s wrong but their choices are severly limited. You blast away your country every single time, forgetting (or not even bothering to know) that those guys at Guantanamo live better the 75% percent of the population of the world…billiond would exchange their lives for theirs…it may still be bad and horrible and illegal, but your sheltered fundamentalism about things you cannot imagine and, believe me, are not on Wikipedia, is so amazingly funny, but in a sad way…like a fly banging against a window, only that I open the window and the fly goes away, you keep closing it and go at it again. BUSH TEH SUXXOR!!! DER TRIHS TEH PWNZ0R OF TEH WORLD!!! DT r0x0r like a f0x0r in a b0x0r!!! ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/165 "2009-04-25T16:00:33Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I still think it a diversionary tactic. Just something to draw attention away from their real problems. Much like Clinton used to do by firing a couple of cruise missiles when his personal issues were starting to get too much attention. I know you don’t really believe this because it makes no sense whatsoever. A single solitary District Attorney, who is not unemployed, who is not a politician and who is not affected by the unemployment rate or your imaginary “real problems” decides to start an investigation. Can you explain how you deduce that his real intention is to draw attention away from the “real problems”? I think I can make a much better case that America’s rah-rah aggressive nationalism are a much better example of trying to draw attention away from America’s real problems. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/166 "2009-04-25T16:04:41Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You blast away your country every single time, forgetting (or not even bothering to know) that those guys at Guantanamo live better the 75% percent of the population of the world…billiond would exchange their lives for theirs…it may still be bad and horrible and illegal, but your sheltered fundamentalism about things you cannot imagine and, believe me, are not on Wikipedia, is so amazingly funny, but in a sad way…like a fly banging against a window, only that I open the window and the fly goes away, you keep closing it and go at it again. This is so ludicrous, so ridiculous, so crazy, so stupid, so false that it beggars belief. Does anyone in their sane mind really believe this? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/167 "2009-04-25T19:01:53Z")
Haven´t seen many poor people, have you? I mean , dirt floor, most of the walls of your house made of cardboard, two old beds four 7 or 8 people, every day waking up wondering if you get to eat every day or if your kids will die of a preventable disease or be raped by a neigbour, no social security, no new clothes in a year, the next doctor 6 or 8 hours away -walking-…an a long etc. topped by the fact that you know with the same certainty I know I’ll won’t be hit by a meterorite that you’ll always be like that and that your kids will be like that and that when they cry of hunger at night you can’t even give them a glass of water to fool their stomachs… This describe 20% of the people in my country. Don’t you think they’ll happily go to Guantanmao for free everything? and if waterboarding gives their kids food…they’ll go for it, hell, I’ll go for it. So yeah, lots of people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/168 "2009-04-25T21:49:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Don’t you think they’ll happily go to Guantanmao for free everything? and if waterboarding gives their kids food…they’ll go for it, hell, I’ll go for it. Garbage. With waterboarding you’d sell your children for meat to avoid it happening again. That’s why it’s used as a torture technique. The rest of your nonsense is just the typical right wing garbage about how we coddle people. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/169 "2009-04-25T22:00:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. With waterboarding you’d sell your children for meat to avoid it happening again. That’s why it’s used as a torture technique. > > The rest of your nonsense is just the typical right wing garbage about how we coddle people. It’s your people, not mine, so go find some US guy to pick a fight about “we are toruturers”. Thousands of people cross the southern US deserts and cram themselves into ship containers to go to work illegally in the US, spending a year’s or more worth of their wages. A two-year stay in Guantanamo looks like Club Med. It doesn’t justify anything, by the way, it simply is. The rest of your nonsense is just the typical self-hating, isolated-from-reality left-wing garbage about how people who suffer endelessly and without hope are better than a guy who eats everyday and had free medical services. Man, that “right-wing” thing, you have a macro ready, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/170 "2009-04-25T22:05:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Thousands of people cross the southern US deserts and cram themselves into ship containers to go to work illegally in the US, spending a year’s or more worth of their wages. To get JOBS. Not to be tortured. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > A two-year stay in Guantanamo looks like Club Med. It doesn’t justify anything, by the way, it simply is. No, that simply isn’t true. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The rest of your nonsense is just the typical self-hating, isolated-from-reality left-wing garbage about how people who suffer endelessly and without hope are better than a guy who eats everyday and had free medical services. Being tortured doesn’t qualify as free medical services. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/171 "2009-04-25T22:38:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > (1)To get JOBS. Not to be tortured. > > (2)No, that simply isn’t true. > > (3)Being tortured doesn’t qualify as free medical services. (numbers mine) 1. Really? That simple? Jobs? Of course super-below entry-level no-insurance less-than-minimum-wage jobs. They torture themselves to get those jobs. THAT’S how badly they want them and how shitty hteir lives are. Crossing deserts without maps, suffocating in a container with no food, water or bathroom. 2. You clear lack of knowledge about how poor people live and the desperation they encounter everyday is almost quaint; how nice must it be to be you and never have seen or remotely understand knee-deep-in-shit poverty. Don’t presume you can talk about it. 3. Who said it does? But let’s see how Gitmo tortures compare to their everyday lives. Sleep deprivation: check Sleeping with insects: check Extreme weather conditions: check Irregular meal service: check Mental agony as to what other shit is going to happen: check Inability to escape: check Depending on whatever the people with power feel like it: check See? Pretty much the same. NONE OF THIS EXCUSES TORTURE. If you put a sign on the US consulates around the world saying “Get waterboarded three times and get a green card” and show videos have doctors explain the horrible suffering and interview the people who have suffered it: the lines would be endless. You’d have people offering waterboarding schools to help you deal with the shock. Real life example: American security companies have hired Peruvians for “security personnel” in Iraq during the toughest moments of war. They were the armed guards at civilian compounds, construction places, etc. The pay: $ 1000 a month. Lines were loooooong. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/172 "2009-04-26T00:19:08Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (numbers mine) > > 1. Really? That simple? Jobs? > Of course super-below entry-level no-insurance less-than-minimum-wage jobs. They torture themselves to get those jobs. Garbage. It’s still better than torture, or they wouldn’t do it. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 1. You clear lack of knowledge about how poor people live and the desperation they encounter everyday is almost quaint; how nice must it be to be you and never have seen or remotely understand knee-deep-in-shit poverty. Don’t presume you can talk about it. > > 2. Who said it does? But let’s see how Gitmo tortures compare to their everyday lives. > Sleep deprivation: check > Sleeping with insects: check > Extreme weather conditions: check > Irregular meal service: check > Mental agony as to what other shit is going to happen: check > Inability to escape: check > Depending on whatever the people with power feel like it: check > > See? Pretty much the same. Not even close, obviously. If poverty was as bad as torture, all poor people would be dead of suicide, insane, or in open armed revolt. With no exceptions. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > NONE OF THIS EXCUSES TORTURE. Oh, please. You are clearly trying to excuse torture by pretending it’s as relatively mild as poverty. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If you put a sign on the US consulates around the world saying “Get waterboarded three times and get a green card” and show videos have doctors explain the horrible suffering and interview the people who have suffered it: the lines would be endless. You’d have people offering waterboarding schools to help you deal with the shock. You delude yourself. Waterboarding is sufficiently awful that NO ONE can deal with it. You also delude yourself that anyone would WANT to immigrate to an America that tortured immigrants. Those consulates would be burned down and the inhabitants massacred, more likely than not. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Real life example: American security companies have hired Peruvians for “security personnel” in Iraq during the toughest moments of war. They were the armed guards at civilian compounds, construction places, etc. The pay: $ 1000 a month. Lines were loooooong. And they weren’t being tortured. What kind of lunatic would torture people, then give them guns and surround yourself with them ? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/173 "2009-04-26T00:45:25Z")
This is just surreal. Someone is arguing that being in prison and being tortured is better than being free and being poor. Anyone else want to support that idea? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/174 "2009-04-26T00:58:41Z")
Didn’t the Red Cross - a bastion of wing-nuttery - say that conditions at Gitmo were OK? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/175 "2009-04-26T03:27:21Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Didn’t the Red Cross - a bastion of wing-nuttery - say that conditions at Gitmo were OK? The Red cross is a “bastion of wing nuttery” ? What’s wrong, they don’t torture and kill people enough for you ? And they weren’t allowed full access, or access at all when most of the torture was going on. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/176 "2009-04-26T09:20:41Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Didn’t the Red Cross - a bastion of wing-nuttery - say that conditions at Gitmo were OK? Nope. They did not. This document is from 2004 and I do not think things have improved, if anything they have deteriorated. And note the Red Cross is _extremely_ diplomatic and avoids criticism where it can. > [@](#): > > [http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/951C74F20D2A2148C1256D8D002CA8DC](http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/951C74F20D2A2148C1256D8D002CA8DC) > > 30-01-2004 > > For the ICRC, the question of the legal status of the persons held at Guantanamo Bay and the legal framework applicable to them remains unresolved. > > The ICRC’s main concern today is that the US authorities have placed the internees in Guantanamo beyond the law. This means that, after more than eighteen months of captivity, the internees still have no idea about their fate, and no means of recourse through any legal mechanism. > > Through its visits, the ICRC has been uniquely placed to witness the impact this uncertainty has had on the internees. It has observed a worrying deterioration in the psychological health of a large number of them. This has prompted the ICRC to ask the US authorities to institute a due legal process in accordance with the judicial guarantees stipulated by international humanitarian law. This process should formalize and clarify the fate of each and every individual in Guantanamo and put an end to the seemingly open-ended system of internment that currently exists. The ICRC has also asked the US authorities to implement significant changes at Guantanamo Bay. > > The US has the right to legally prosecute any internee at Guantanamo Bay suspected of having committed war crimes or any other criminal offence punishable under US law. > […] > The ICRC has visited all the juveniles detained at Guantanamo including the three minors released on 29 January 2004. The ICRC does not consider Guantanamo an appropriate place to detain juveniles. It is especially concerned about the fact that they are held away from their families and it worries about the possible psychological impact this experience could have at such an important stage in their development. > [. . .] > The ICRC’s dialogue with the US on the conditions of internment and the treatment of internees remains frank and open. Nonetheless, serious divergences of opinion persist on a number of crucial issues. > [. . .] > International humanitarian law stipulates that any proceedings against detainees should respect fundamental judicial guarantees, such as the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried by an impartial and independent tribunal, the right to competent legal counsel and the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. The Red Cross is well respected around the world including the American government who has used their services repeatedly throught history. Trying to discredit the ICRC is like trying to discredit Gandhi or Mother Theresa, it is immediately becomes obvious that the person doing it is in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/177 "2009-04-26T10:31:01Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The Red Cross is well respected around the world including the American government who has used their services repeatedly throught history. Trying to discredit the ICRC is like trying to discredit Gandhi or Mother Theresa, it is immediately becomes obvious that the person doing it is in the wrong. You truly believe that certain people and bodies are above criticism? Wow. That’s kinda pathetic. I have no problem criticising Gandhi, Mother Teresa and the Red Cross, for perfectly valid reasons. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/178 "2009-04-26T16:15:35Z")
**TWEEEEEET!!!** Everybody out of the pool! Calm down. There will be no more comments that another poster’s position is stupid or otherwise ill-considered. If you want to disagree, do it with facts and logic. This name-calling with a wink-and-a-nod to the rules forbidding it has now ended. Any further posts of that nature will result in Warnings and the closing of this thread. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/179 "2009-04-26T16:20:16Z")
Sorry. I really should have known better than to write that. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/180 "2009-04-26T22:00:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. It’s still better than torture, or they wouldn’t do it. > > Not even close, obviously. If poverty was as bad as torture, all poor people would be dead of suicide, insane, or in open armed revolt. With no exceptions. > > Oh, please. You are clearly trying to excuse torture by pretending it’s as relatively mild as poverty. > > You delude yourself. Waterboarding is sufficiently awful that NO ONE can deal with it. You also delude yourself that anyone would WANT to immigrate to an America that tortured immigrants. Those consulates would be burned down and the inhabitants massacred, more likely than not. > And they weren’t being tortured. What kind of lunatic would torture people, then give them guns and surround yourself with them ? I have come to realise that our differences stem from our vastly different and diverging views and experiences as to the nature of the suffering and desperation that extreme poverty entails and how the relative confort of both of our lives may hinder our precise interpretation of facts and the imagined results of hypothetical situations. Might it be possible for you to refrain from implying or outright saying that I condone torture? I most surely don’t. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Red cross is a “bastion of wing nuttery” ? What’s wrong, they don’t torture and kill people enough for you ? > > And they weren’t allowed full access, or access at all when most of the torture was going on. I most profusely apologise if my vain attempt at irony was not properly conveyed. I, with utter certainty, sincerely believe the ICRC is not a bastion of wing-nuttery [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=10)