Vive Charlie Hebro! French mag publishes naked Muhammad cartoons

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I think I’ll go spread a big American flag on the sidewalk and take a massive shit in the middle of it. Then I’ll set it on fire. I’m quite sure that my American compatriots will stand back approving of my forceful expression of the right to free speech. Right?

That’s the wonderful thing about free speech.

You can shit on the flag and burn it and I can stand nearby and call you an asshole for doing that.

No problems there.

What I cannot do is physically assault you (well, at least not legally).

[billfish678]

@fumster

Let’s just take a hypothetical example. Suppose someone in the mid-east set fire to an American flag (I know, I know, it’s too far fetched) do you think that Americans would storm the embassy of the country that happened in and kill a couple of people before being forced back at gun point? Of course we will never know, because no one in the mid-east would ever do something like that because they have too much respect for the values of other people. If only the west was as respectful of other’s sensitivities as middle easterners are.

heh

good one there.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Whack-a-Mole

That’s the wonderful thing about free speech.

You can shit on the flag and burn it and I can stand nearby and call you an asshole for doing that.

No problems there.

What I cannot do is physically assault you (well, at least not legally).

Again, I’m not suggesting equivalence on the intolerance side. I’m actually hopeful that unity on the defense of free speech will persist across circumstances and variations in the content of speech. It’s easy to support free speech that you agree with.

[CairoCarol]

@Harborwolf

So the people drawing the cartoon have a responsibility to contribute to intelligent debate, but the people throwing rocks and molotovs because of a cartoon don’t have a responsibility not to be violent dicks?

I agree that freedom of speech does come with responsibility, but shirking that responsibility doesn’t mean it’s kosher for me to burn your house down because I disagreed with your posts here.

Kindly quote where I said violence of any kind was kosher.

[John_Mace]

@VinylTurnip

Has Der Trihs ever had a cite for anything?

How about a cite for sore eyes?

I don’t know why we should celebrate trollery in the public sphere. I will defend this guy’s right to publish whatever he wants, but I’ll still call a troll a troll. Even if he’s trolling people I don’t agree with.

[elucidator]

Our enemies depend on fomenting hatred of America. What works best is the lie that America hates Islam, and wants to destroy it. And every so often, almost every other day, some American gives them a great big present. Its like manna from Heaven, except its poison, and from Hell.

[CairoCarol]

@elucidator

Our enemies depend on fomenting hatred of America. What works best is the lie that America hates Islam, and wants to destroy it. And every so often, almost every other day, some American gives them a great big present. Its like manna from Heaven, except its poison, and from Hell.

Well said. A point that may often be lost in debates like this one is the extent to which extremists themselves spread or even fabricate offensive words and images that supposedly emanate from Western sources and represent Western thought. It’s a tactic used by hate-mongers everywhere who want to set up an us-versus-them mentality.

Plenty of lies have been told by Islamic extremists to foment resentment of the West. It’s a sad day whenever we give them actual facts, instead of lies, to work with.

[aldiboronti]

@elucidator

Our enemies depend on fomenting hatred of America. What works best is the lie that America hates Islam, and wants to destroy it. And every so often, almost every other day, some American gives them a great big present. Its like manna from Heaven, except its poison, and from Hell.

Wouldn’t you say that American support for Israel has just a teensy bit more to do with that supposed hate than the occasional movie or cartoon?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@elucidator

Our enemies depend on fomenting hatred of America. What works best is the lie that America hates Islam, and wants to destroy it. And every so often, almost every other day, some American gives them a great big present. Its like manna from Heaven, except its poison, and from Hell.

@CairoCarol

Well said. A point that may often be lost in debates like this one is the extent to which extremists themselves spread or even fabricate offensive words and images that supposedly emanate from Western sources and represent Western thought. It’s a tactic used by hate-mongers everywhere who want to set up an us-versus-them mentality.

Plenty of lies have been told by Islamic extremists to foment resentment of the West. It’s a sad day whenever we give them actual facts, instead of lies, to work with.

Hate Islam specifically? No.

But we do fuck with them on a regular basis and have done so for a long time.

We supported Mubarak right up till the last moment. After Mubarak was on the outs we supported his head of torture Omar Suleiman to replace him.

Read your history to see why Iran is the foe of America it is today (we overthrew their democratically elected government and put back their dictator and his death squads).

Not saying the Middle East countries have been saints. Far from it. But there is plenty of good reason on their side to not be fans of the US.

None of that absolves them of this bullshit but don’t pose some holier than thou position for the US.

[elucidator]

Wouldn’t you say that American support for Israel has just a teensy bit more to do with that supposed hate than the occasional movie or cartoon?

I’m not sure that I would, but if I did I’d say it better.

[CairoCarol]

@Whack-a-Mole

there is plenty of good reason on their side to not be fans of the US.

(snip) Don’t pose some holier than thou position for the US.

If this is your reaction to my words, I didn’t make myself at all clear.

Believe me, I’m the last person to take a “holier than thou” position on behalf of the US. Seventeen years of living in the Islamic world would have cured me of that quite well, if I’d been so inclined in the first place.

[John_Mace]

99.9% of us mange to go about our daily business without intentionally insulting one religion or another. There is nothing to admire about the .1% who don’t.

[aldiboronti]

@elucidator

I’m not sure that I would, but if I did I’d say it better.

If you’re not sure you would then you’re an idiot. But I rather think that you’re being dishonest in an attempt to score a cheap point.

[Lobohan]

@John_Mace

There is nothing to admire about the .1% who don’t.

Hey!

[bldysabba]

@Kimstu

I think that ultimately, the most ethical and most effective approach is just to follow your own principles with integrity, irrespective of what bullies are trying to get you to do or not do.

And that’s exactly what Charlie Hebdo’s doing in this case.

[tagos]

This article my Sam Harris is relevant and as a fellow secular liberal provokes a ‘what that guy said’ from me.
On The Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God

Our government followed the path of appeasement further by attempting to silence the irrepressible crackpot Pastor Terry Jones, who had left off burning copies of the Qur’an just long enough to promote the film.

<snip>

The contagion of moral cowardice followed its usual course, wherein liberal journalists and pundits began to reconsider our most basic freedoms in light of the sadomasochistic fury known as “religious sensitivity” among Muslims. Contributors to The New York Times and NPR spoke of the need to find a balance between free speech and freedom of religion—as though the latter could possibly be infringed by a YouTube video. As predictable as Muslim bullying has become, the moral confusion of secular liberals appears to be part of the same clockwork.

<snip>

Most secular liberals think that all religions are the same, and they consider any suggestion to the contrary a sign of bigotry. Somehow, this article of faith survives daily disconfirmation. Our language is largely to blame for this. As I have pointed out on many occasions, “religion” is a term like “sports”: Some sports are peaceful but spectacularly dangerous (“free solo” rock climbing, street luge); some are safer but synonymous with violence (boxing, mixed martial arts); and some entail no more risk of serious injury than standing in the shower (bowling, badminton).

<snip>

The freedom to think out loud on certain topics, without fear of being hounded into hiding or killed, has already been lost. And the only forces on earth that can recover it are strong, secular governments that will face down charges of blasphemy with scorn. No apologies necessary. Muslims must learn that if they make belligerent and fanatical claims upon the tolerance of free societies, they will meet the limits of that tolerance.

IMHO Muslims who object to any exercise of free speech, however heinously it offends their imaginary god, should be told to frack right off. No compromises. No wavering. And christians should STFU about blasphemy against their imaginary friend as well.

Again speaking as a peace-loving secular liberal, if I was President the militia taking part in these demonstrations would be having its cards forcibly marked ASAP.

Neither Libya or Egypt or Afghanistan for that matter are ever going to be our friends so no point apologising or tip toeing around.

[aldiboronti]

That Sam Harris article is excellent! If Western governments are going to bow and scrape and apologize every time one of their citizens takes a shot at Islam they’re going to be kept very busy and each single time they do it they will be giving encouragement to the murderous extremists to think that if they just murder enough people the West will back down and introduce laws curbing free speech.

[CairoCarol]

@tagos

Neither Libya or Egypt or Afghanistan for that matter are ever going to be our friends so no point apologising or tip toeing around.

[QUOTE=Mitt Romney]
The Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace - and the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish. You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize this is going to remain an unsolved problem.
[/QUOTE]

Damn that Mitt, he’s starting to talk an awful lot like a “peace-loving secular liberal.”

[Harborwolf]

@CairoCarol

Kindly quote where I said violence of any kind was kosher.

You didn’t mention the violence at all, choosing to chastise those who you thought were exercising their right to free speech poorly. At least not in the post I quoted. You did mention that there were people throwing rocks and molotovs in your first post, but without condemnation of any kind.

[JKellyMap]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I think I’ll go spread a big American flag on the sidewalk and take a massive shit in the middle of it. Then I’ll set it on fire. I’m quite sure that my American compatriots will stand back approving of my forceful expression of the right to free speech. Right?

Right.

No, seriously. That is correct.