# Vocal Fry- Can we please make it against the law? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 3, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677 "2012-03-03T21:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/101 "2012-11-05T19:54:40Z")
I have never heard the term vocal fry and had no idea what the OP was refering to. I know the Britney Spears voice thingy she’s talking about - I liken it more to dolphins and call it “doing the Flipper” - but to me it’s a totally different phenomenon than that thing some people do when speaking. As someone who grew up in SoCal in the 80s, it sure does sound related to Valley Speak, only when we did it we were relating to the surfers who spoke that way, mostly because their voices were raspy from smoking pot. In my opinion, yes it sure as hell is annoying and it is a very deliberate affectation. I remember speaking that way for no particularly deep reason other than fitting in with the cool kids, as has been pointed out. I’d like to think most people do grow out of it, though I still hear plenty of women doing the Valley Girl upspeak way past the age when they should have gotten over it. All it took for me was my mother pointing out what a twat I sounded like at thirteen for me to cultivate it right out of my speech pattern(I still continued to smoke pot with the surfers, though). Maybe I should hold a seance and have her cosmically bitch slap it out of the voice fryers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/102 "2012-11-06T02:22:19Z")
Good grief. I just listened to one of the NPR pieces, and there’s nothing wrong whatsoever with the low tones of the speaker’s voice. Folks getting annoyed by this are, in my opinion, as silly as folks who get all bothered by uptalk, another cromulent speech pattern. We’re in something of a transition in spoken English. Nothing as dramatic as the Great Vowel Shift, but it is a time of transition. The amateur psychologist in me suspects that the problem isn’t with folks needing to conform to a social group (another name for which phenomenon is **culture** ), but rather is the age-old problem of some older folks thinking that the particular cultural idiosyncrasies they learned aren’t idiosyncrasies at all, but are the Right Way To Do Things. They’re not. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/103 "2012-11-06T02:40:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good grief. I just listened to one of the NPR pieces, and there’s nothing wrong whatsoever with the low tones of the speaker’s voice. Folks getting annoyed by this are, in my opinion, as silly as folks who get all bothered by uptalk, another cromulent speech pattern. > > We’re in something of a transition in spoken English. Nothing as dramatic as the Great Vowel Shift, but it is a time of transition. The amateur psychologist in me suspects that the problem isn’t with folks needing to conform to a social group (another name for which phenomenon is **culture** ), but rather is the age-old problem of some older folks thinking that the particular cultural idiosyncrasies they learned aren’t idiosyncrasies at all, but are the Right Way To Do Things. > > They’re not. I didn’t listen to the NPR pieces so I don’t know what they’re meant to illustrate. I personally find a certain, er, _something_ in most NPR hosts’ voices that grates on my nerves but I’m not sure it’s the quality this thread is addressing. Not trying to be combatative but one man’s “cromulent” speech pattern is another man’s source of irritation. Why are you taking umbrage that some people find it annoying, just because you don’t find it so? I absolutely don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself, but I think my experience with the Valley Speak / Vocal sautee whatever is probably not that unique, as none of the people who I grew up with who adopted it still speak that way. We _did_ affect it as a way to conform to a social group and we did come to realize how stupid it sounds. As a middle aged fogey I have long sing learned not to use the terms “right” and “wrong” but rather what serves one and what does not. In my most humble, old fogey opinion, one is not served by speaking like a ditzy teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/104 "2012-11-06T03:57:26Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > \Maybe I should hold a seance and have her cosmically bitch slap it out of the voice fryers. Would you mind? That would be awesome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/105 "2012-11-06T05:13:53Z")
I’m with LHoD. There’s maybe a case for arguing against valleygirl, if only because it will turn old fogeys against you and is neutral for everyone else, but getting wound up about vocal fry puts you firmly in old man yelling at clouds territory. People don’t all talk the way you’d like. Here’s a bridge, get over it. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/106 "2012-11-06T05:29:33Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m with LHoD. There’s maybe a case for arguing against valleygirl, if only because it will turn old fogeys against you and is neutral for everyone else, but getting wound up about vocal fry puts you firmly in old man yelling at clouds territory. People don’t all talk the way you’d like. Here’s a bridge, get over it. So what \*are \*people allowed to have opinions about without it being chalked up to as fogeyism?? Should I assume that Valley speak is the adopted mode of vocalization for you and your friends? I mean, since you say it’s neutral for “everyone else”. If it’s neutral for everyone else, why was it so famously mocked by someone in the very age group that favored it? There’s a reason it’s still made fun of. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/107 "2012-11-06T05:31:09Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > So what \*are \*people allowed to have opinions about without it being chalked up to as fogeyism?? I have an opinion about your fogeyism which can’t be chalked up to fogeyism. You might want to put it down to my whippersnapperosity, though. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/108 "2012-11-06T05:37:03Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > So what \*are \*people allowed to have opinions about without it being chalked up to as fogeyism?? Should I assume that Valley speak is the adopted mode of vocalization for you and your friends? I mean, since you say it’s neutral for “everyone else”. If it’s neutral for everyone else, why was it so famously mocked by someone in the very age group that favored it? There’s a reason it’s still made fun of. Old fogey is a state of mind, not a demographic. If a 20 year old told me they hated valley girl, I’d call them an old fogey. You can assume whatever you like. There’s recordings of my voice floating around though in one of the accent threads sunspace put together so you’d look a right fool, if you did so. If anything I sound more like Marge Gunderson than Cher Horowitz. ---
**Author:** ![nion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@nion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nion)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/109 "2012-11-06T06:05:45Z")
This is one reason Australian speech patterns amuse me. I don’t know if it’s a recent thing, but I’ve noticed watching Aussies on television that they also end most all of their sentences like a question. This is regardless as to whether they are being interviewed or in a “natural” setting. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/110 "2012-11-06T11:43:05Z")
> [@nion](#): > > This is one reason Australian speech patterns amuse me. I don’t know if it’s a recent thing, but I’ve noticed watching Aussies on television that they also end most all of their sentences like a question. This is regardless as to whether they are being interviewed or in a “natural” setting. “The rising inflection.” Soon there will be a vaccine for that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/111 "2012-11-06T13:26:03Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > “The rising inflection.” Soon there will be a vaccine for that? Nah. Soon there will be a president who talks like that. It’s a transition in spoken English intonation, in which a terminal rise signifies not a question but that the thought will continue. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/112 "2012-11-06T14:50:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nah. Soon there will be a president who talks like that. It’s a transition in spoken English intonation, in which a terminal rise signifies not a question but that the thought will continue. If that’s the case -and I’m setting aside snark to possibly have a civilized discussion- then why is it (mostly) limited to teens and twenty-somethings? Why do \*most \*people choose to abandon it when they reach, if not a certain age, then a certain professional / economic whatever point in their life? I can understand someone saying they don’t mind or notice the vocalizations being discussed here but I never thought I’d hear anyone \*defend \*them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/113 "2012-11-06T17:03:13Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > If that’s the case -and I’m setting aside snark to possibly have a civilized discussion- then why is it (mostly) limited to teens and twenty-somethings? Why do \*most \*people choose to abandon it when they reach, if not a certain age, then a certain professional / economic whatever point in their life? I can understand someone saying they don’t mind or notice the vocalizations being discussed here but I never thought I’d hear anyone \*defend \*them. Do you have any cites showing that people abandon it at a certain age? [I’m not convinced](http://books.google.com/books?id=vCDX54DlYBYC&pg=PT384&lpg=PT384&dq=pinker+uptalk&source=bl&ots=hy39PWDi_u&sig=hmJqcJg55FuH0ccgo1jozxX6Hl4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r0GZULGdMozc8wST94DABw&ved=0CIUBEOgBMAk): > [@Stephen Pinker](#): > > Though uptalk probably began as a reflex of politeness (part of the twentieth-century trend toward egalitarianism and social closeness), it is becoming a neutral feature of standard American English, as it has been for centuries in some Irish, English, and Southern American dialects. The spread of uptalk is a rare case in which we can feel what it’s like to be part of a historical change int he language, watching a construction as it tips from having a transparent rationale to being just a convention. I found another article in which that famous valley girl [George W. Bush](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002708.html) is cited as using uptalk. Far be it from me to hold him forth as an exemplar of good speaking; that’s not remotely what I’m doing. I’m just suggesting that he might not be a teenaged girl from California. (Edit: clearly I was wrong when I said “soon we will have a president…” I should have said “We already have had a president…”) ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/114 "2012-11-06T17:42:12Z")
I’m not a linguist, cunning or otherwise and wouldn’t begin to know how to find a cite on this subject.This thread started with someone making an observation - stating an _opinion_, and other people responded. I realize my anecdote does not equal proof ( then again that’s why this is in IMHO and not GQ) but I was using my experience to explain how I’ve arrived at my conclusion. I’m just saying that when I lived in the area where it originated I made an extra special effort to speak in the way of my peers and at some point we stopped. Or at least no one at my high school reunion still spoke that way. What they do at home is anybody’s guess. Are you saying that most people (who are also not linquists) don’t associate upspeak with teenagers / twenty somethings? Again, I’m not being snide, I’ve just never heard it as anything but a stereotype. As for Bush, I think his Texas drawl kind of negates the upspeak thing. Technically he may be upspeaking but I don’t think that’s the main characteristic people notice when he [del]blathers[/del] talks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/115 "2012-11-06T17:47:24Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’m not a linguist, cunning or otherwise and wouldn’t begin to know how to find a cite on this subject.This thread started with someone making an observation - stating an _opinion_, and other people responded. I realize my anecdote does not equal proof ( then again that’s why this is in IMHO and not GQ) but I was using my experience to explain how I’ve arrived at my conclusion. I’m just saying that when I lived in the area where it originated I made an extra special effort to speak in the way of my peers and at some point we stopped. Or at least no one at my high school reunion still spoke that way. What they do at home is anybody’s guess. > > Are you saying that most people (who are also not linquists) don’t associate upspeak with teenagers / twenty somethings? Again, I’m not being snide, I’ve just never heard it as anything but a stereotype. Whether uptalk or vocal fry are annoying–these are opinions. Whether folks associate it with teenage girls and whether it’s a true association are both factual claims. It certainly seems likely to me that many folks associate it with teenage girls (although my suspicion is that most folks don’t, because most folks don’t notice it at all). However, what I’ve read suggests that that’s not an accurate association. Furthermore, I think that many folks who do make such an association go on to draw the vaguely misogynistic conclusion that it’s therefore a frivolous and contemptible manner of speaking. Not saying that’s what you’ve done, but it sometimes goes down that way. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/116 "2012-11-06T18:15:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Whether uptalk or vocal fry are annoying–these are opinions. Whether folks associate it with teenage girls and whether it’s a true association are both factual claims. > > It certainly seems likely to me that many folks associate it with teenage girls (although my suspicion is that most folks don’t, because most folks don’t notice it at all). However, what I’ve read suggests that that’s not an accurate association. Furthermore, I think that many folks who do make such an association go on to draw the vaguely misogynistic conclusion that it’s therefore a frivolous and contemptible manner of speaking. Not saying that’s what you’ve done, but it sometimes goes down that way. That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. OVERRULED! 😃 (Quoting movies is my terrible speaking vice). Thank you, though; at least I get where you’re coming from. I admit to being one who finds it a frivolous and contemptible manner of speaking but I’m always open to at least \*hear \*the other side. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/117 "2012-12-26T22:40:04Z")
Someone linked to the following video in another thread: [Defenestration of Prague, as explained by Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0039-defenestration.htm?&t=1356284811) Fry-tastic! ---
**Author:** ![SerafinaPekala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SerafinaPekala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SerafinaPekala)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/118 "2012-12-27T22:48:56Z")
[Amanda Vinicky](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRtIe1XbCBY) Gahhhh!!! She seems to be getting better as she ages, but as a cub reporter on Peoria radio her sing-songy nasal fry voice was enough to make me change the station. Then she went to Springfield and then national so there’s no escaping her!! :rolleyes: Will these fry-voiced bimbos actually go mute eventually as a result? ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/119 "2012-12-28T01:45:31Z")
At least I have a better idea of what “vocal fry” is. Compared to "upspeak’, I’ll take it any day. I’m pretty sure I’m in the minority, but I’d be happy if the citizens of these united all adapted the “neutral” (media speak?) tone. I’m all for varied looks, music, dress, food, etc., but I really don’t want to hear anyone’s dialect or regionalisms. Yes, I know that’s my quirk and therefore my problem; just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677/120 "2012-12-28T15:21:17Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > At least I have a better idea of what “vocal fry” is. Compared to "upspeak’, I’ll take it any day. I’m pretty sure I’m in the minority, but I’d be happy if the citizens of these united all adapted the “neutral” (media speak?) tone. I’m all for varied looks, music, dress, food, etc., but I really don’t want to hear anyone’s dialect or regionalisms. Yes, I know that’s my quirk and therefore my problem; just saying. Hahaa. Why not just make us all speak like robots? Vocal fry doesn’t bother me…I never noticed it until the hate for it got a lot of trendy media attention this year. But [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kV4k5J1wsE)girl really dips into it hard core. At some points she just sounds like a straight up croaking frog. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vocal-fry-can-we-please-make-it-against-the-law/614677.md?page=7)