# Volcano plume seeding clouds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 13, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011 "2018-06-13T03:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/1 "2018-06-13T03:56:05Z")
I was in Pahao a couple of days ago quite close to the Kilauea volcano. The plume from a large partial caldera collapse apparently came right over us. The rain that came down was falling at about 4 inches an hour according to my friend’s rain gauge. The strange thing was how localized it was. We called my friend’s wife in Hilo (only a few miles away) and she said it was sunny. After waiting about 2 hours for the rain to stop so we could continue to unload the container, we gave up. We only had to drive about two miles before we got out of the rain, but my friend said it continued to rain at his farm where the container was another 10 hours! Was it the plume seeding the local clouds or just a 12 hour local “cloudburst”? Puna can easily get over 100 or even 150 inches of rain a year so I suppose it could have been just a regular storm. Can volcanic plumes seed clouds? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/2 "2018-06-13T04:35:05Z")
I Googled the final sentence, and in short, the answer is yes. > **[Volcanoes Could Trigger Bigger Climate Impact Than Thought](https://www.livescience.com/14992-climate-impact-volcanoes-eruptions.html)** > > Volcanic eruptions might impact Earth's climate more than previously thought by releasing far more weather-altering particles than before suspected and potentially seeding clouds in the atmosphere tha ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/3 "2018-06-13T09:40:01Z")
Not only do volcanic eruptions seed clouds, but they also tend to release a lot of water vapor, which further contributes to local cloud formation and local rain. You also end up with frictional charging in the ash cloud, which can often create localized lightning in and around the eruption. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/4 "2018-06-13T11:10:09Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > … they also tend to release a lot of water vapor, which further contributes to local cloud formation and local rain. This apparently led to a [winter weather advisory](https://www.cleveland.com/weather/blog/index.ssf/2018/06/as_kilauea_erupts_freezing_rai.html) (freezing rain and ice) for the Mauna Kea summit area a few days ago. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/5 "2018-06-13T13:57:32Z")
here in NSW, we get hail storms from thermals, which means we get ice ironically from the hot weather. Same with the volcano. There is now more evaporation from the lava boiling water in Kapoha crater and bay ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/6 "2018-06-13T15:57:10Z")
The volcanic ash would be a seeding source if the atmosphere didn’t already have enough, and that’s generally not the case … so maybe a little bit of that rain was extra because of the ash, however as **e\_c\_g** points out there’s also quite a bit of extra water vapor included in these ash clouds, and water vapor at a very high temperature … if we have saturated air at 300ºC and drop the temperature down to 50ºC, that water will condense\* whether there’s nucleation sites or not … so I think that this is why you experienced this excessive rainfall in that specific location … and remember that cloud droplets themselves act as nucleation sites … That said, this ash tends to remain suspended in the atmosphere for weeks, months and perhaps even years afterward … so the contribution of volcanic ash in cloud formation is an on-going thing and on a world-wide basis … so this one volcanic eruption adds to the load but we have to look at all the eruptions over the past few years collectively and here we will see more rainfall … along with just dust blown up into the air, pollen, salt and indeed meteor debris (ha ha ha, get it, _meteor_ology) … - = or deposit, water vapor changing state directly to ice … ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/7 "2018-06-13T20:43:49Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > There is now more evaporation from the lava boiling water in Kapoha crater and bay Didn’t I hear something about the bay getting filled in by lava? So it’w not a bay anymore but the opposite (no longer an “innie” but and “outie” now)? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/8 "2018-06-13T21:18:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Didn’t I hear something about the bay getting filled in by lava? So it’w not a bay anymore but the opposite (no longer an “innie” but and “outie” now)? [Wow.](http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-kilauea-volcano-before-after-satellite-pictures-2018-6) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/9 "2018-06-13T21:42:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Didn’t I hear something about the bay getting filled in by lava? So it’w not a bay anymore but the opposite (no longer an “innie” but and “outie” now)? Google Maps has already updated it to read “Kapoho Point”. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/10 "2018-06-14T04:59:38Z")
However, the eruption is on the cooler and rainier side of the island. I was on the big island a couple years ago, staying on the west coast. We drove over to the park to have a look at the volcano, which wasn’t doing much, but it absolutely pissed down rain all day long. Driving back, it was like going through a curtain–cold and rainy one side, warm and sunny the other. I’m not disputing that Kilauea is affecting the weather, but it may be exacerbating conditions that would exist anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/11 "2018-06-14T17:34:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > [Wow.](http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-kilauea-volcano-before-after-satellite-pictures-2018-6) Indeed. So how long does it take before bare lava slopes can support plants again? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/12 "2018-06-14T17:51:09Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Indeed. So how long does it take before bare lava slopes can support plants again? I believe mangroves could grow right away with their roots in the water, but I would think that organic material must pile up and rot to become soil. Fifty years? Hundreds of years? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/13 "2018-06-14T19:33:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe mangroves could grow right away with their roots in the water, but I would think that organic material must pile up and rot to become soil. Fifty years? Hundreds of years? When I visited the Big Island, I went to the site of a lava flow from around a decade earlier. It was pretty barren, but there were a few coconut palms and other plants growing in the lava field. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/14 "2018-06-14T19:46:44Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > When I visited the Big Island, I went to the site of a lava flow from around a decade earlier. It was pretty barren, but there were a few coconut palms and other plants growing in the lava field. How did they send out roots? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/15 "2018-06-14T20:45:11Z")
With great determination? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/16 "2018-06-14T21:18:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > With great determination? Perhaps so. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/17 "2018-06-14T23:45:49Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Indeed. So how long does it take before bare lava slopes can support plants again? (I own a home in Hawaii and used to live in the Puna district on the Big Island) Often the first life to form is lichen because it can live without soil. Ferns are next and can be seen growing in lava that is only a year or so old. Rainfall makes a huge difference and the Kilauea area gets over 80 inches on average. Another important factor is wind. Strong breezes blow in dust to the lava areas and airborne seeds germinate in these small pockets of soil. Metrosideros polymorpha (or in Hawaiian “ʻōhiʻa lehua”) are the first real trees to grow in “fresh” lava. They are pretty much the only kind of tree you will see in the “recent” lava flow areas. People who live in the Puna area try to find cracks or crevices in the lava on their property. They fill these areas with bags of soil and plant trees. The roots eventually break up the lava underneath and grow quite well. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/18 "2018-06-14T23:51:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How did they send out roots? Lava flows in Hawaii are not like asphalt - they are full of cracks. I can probably find some photos from the trip if you are interested. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/19 "2018-06-15T01:59:21Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Lava flows in Hawaii are not like asphalt - they are full of cracks. > I can probably find some photos from the trip if you are interested. I am, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011/20 "2018-06-15T03:47:11Z")
[Ferns growing on the lava flow.](https://cl.ly/422n3p3L1P2n) [More plants trying to make it](https://cl.ly/0n080k2H0Y0r). [Lonely palm tree.](https://cl.ly/3s163Y1K0H0k) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volcano-plume-seeding-clouds/816011.md?page=2)