# Voldemort vs Gandalf (or other wizards) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740 "2010-11-15T14:34:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/41 "2010-11-16T10:44:50Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Buff spells tend to be either game-breaking or useless unless you’re very, very careful. They also loose their dramatic ‘oomph’ if they’re not used very rarely and subtly. > > D&D style buffs show up pretty rarely in fiction not directly inspired by D&D. And not even most of that. Slayers and Bastard!! for example, both D&D with the serial numbers filed off, had none. > > – > And why is waving a wand more cumbersome than pointing a gun? Particularly if modern guns haven’t been invented yet? I was going to make an earlier post about how I’d like to see a Voldemort vs. Lina Inverse battle. Anyway, in Slayers NEXT, Lina does get those amulets (or talisman) from Xellos that allows her to power up her spells. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/42 "2010-11-16T11:37:42Z")
Even if you concede that Gandalf does not have powerful magic, he is extremely hardy. Rather than just high HP, he actually has auto-resurrection. For him to lose would be like Tidus losing to Sin’s final form in Final Fantasy X. Of course, Voldy has his own resurection power as well, but it can be stopped. I think the only way Gandalf could be stopped is if he stopped doing the will of Eru. And if the most seductive evil in Middle Earth couldn’t change him, what are the chances that Voldy can pull it off? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/43 "2010-11-16T11:45:34Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Buff spells tend to be either game-breaking or useless unless you’re very, very careful. They also loose their dramatic ‘oomph’ if they’re not used very rarely and subtly. > > D&D style buffs show up pretty rarely in fiction not directly inspired by D&D. And not even most of that. Slayers and Bastard!! for example, both D&D with the serial numbers filed off, had none. > > – > And why is waving a wand more cumbersome than pointing a gun? Particularly if modern guns haven’t been invented yet? Why are you disqualifying modern guns? It’s less cumbersome because you don’t have to swish a gun around in the air before you pull the trigger. Imagine a western where one duelist draws, then waves his hand around in the air for a second while yelling something. Do you think he’s going to win? Spells in the HPverse have lots of uses that couldn’t be replicated with muggle tech, but for good old fashioned killing people, they fall way way short. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/44 "2010-11-16T13:18:45Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Why are you disqualifying modern guns? > > It’s less cumbersome because you don’t have to swish a gun around in the air before you pull the trigger. Imagine a western where one duelist draws, then waves his hand around in the air for a second while yelling something. Do you think he’s going to win? > > Spells in the HPverse have lots of uses that couldn’t be replicated with muggle tech, but for good old fashioned killing people, they fall way way short. I’ve never read the HP books, but I did see a couple of the movies. In that universe, the truly lethal wizard would wear a gun and practice drawing and firing for speed. He wouldn’t need to be Doc Holliday to put a bullet (or bullets) in another wizard before the wand waving/spell yelling could bear fruit. If I understand the necessity of the spoken part correctly, a good punch in the mouth\_properly timed\_turns a powerful wizard into some dweeb ineffectually waving a twig about. Harry, if he wants to be a bad ass, needs to practice cross-discipline skills integrating magic, conventional weapons, and unarmed techniques. …and then Richard Rahl would get ass-raped by a dominatrix, give some long Ayn Randian speech, suddenly develop the power to deflect bullets with the sheer power of his rage, and kill Harry in some graphically over-the-top fashion. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/45 "2010-11-16T15:00:46Z")
I read all the HP books, and I never got the impression that Voldemort could even take Dumbledore, let alone Gandalf and the others mentioned here. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/46 "2010-11-16T15:02:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If I understand the necessity of the spoken part correctly, a good punch in the mouth\_properly timed\_turns a powerful wizard into some dweeb ineffectually waving a twig about. The spoken part isn’t necessary. They spend a bunch of time in book 6 learning to cast spells non-verbally, which requires more concentration. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/47 "2010-11-16T15:04:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My apologies; that was not intended as threadshitting. It’s a reference to (a quote from, actually) the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny. > [@twickster](#): > > Thanks for the explanation. I didn’t recognize the quote, obviously. That’s okay **twicks** ; I did recognize it. (I just rewatched UShUDest over the weekend.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/48 "2010-11-16T15:09:00Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > Since Gandalf is near-divine, how about [Shazam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shazam_%28comics%29) who fought and nearly defeated the Spectre, aka the Wrath of God? Not to sidetrack **Jor** ’s question, but my original thought was Voldemort vs. Sauron. But Sauron is a Maiar, a higher order of divine being than Gandalf, and the longest-serving of Melkor’s captains (or at least best documented), so it wouldn’t be much of a discussion. In short: Voldemort thought he was all-powerful. Sauron used to work for all-powerful and would pwn Voldy’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/49 "2010-11-16T15:21:49Z")
Real-life wizard Aleister Crowley would kick Voldemort’s ass **and** fuck it. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/50 "2010-11-16T15:27:28Z")
Voldemort v. Gandalf seems a bit like Beowulf v. J. Robert Oppenheimer. One excels in direct face-to-face killin’, the other can get more killin’ done, but he needs a while to set it up. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/51 "2010-11-16T15:29:16Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > In practice, though, when did Gandalf ever do anything that badass in combat, other than an off-camera battle with a Balrog in which he got himself killed for a while. Not alone (he had the help of the rest of the wizards), but he did drive the Necromancer from Mirkwood and I doubt that was merely a matter of uttering stern warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/52 "2010-11-16T16:52:12Z")
On the subject of wands and guns… I’d always figured any self-respecting magic-user would be able to make it misfire. Guns are pretty intricate machines; they’re known to misfire or jam even without a wizard nearby. So it really depends on the power of suprise. If Joe Normal sneaks up on Evil Sorceror Bob and kills him in one shot, or disables/distracts him long enough to fire more shots, Joe wins. (Unless Bob has some sort of spell that stops bullets). If Bob sees Joe coming, Joe is toast. Speaking of guns, John Taylor has this trick where he magics the bullets out of the gun into his pocket. Also, he once did a varient on a would-be-assasin where he replaced the air in the guy’s lungs with toilet water. Used toilet water. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/53 "2010-11-16T17:05:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Because they’re British, and that would be bloody rude. Plus, they’re British - can they even _own_ shotguns? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/54 "2010-11-16T17:15:24Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > The spoken part isn’t necessary. They spend a bunch of time in book 6 learning to cast spells non-verbally, which requires more concentration. Well, then I learned something today. Are the gestures with the twig still needed or does this raise things to the level of point-and-zorch? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/55 "2010-11-16T17:45:11Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Quick Ben would kick all their asses. Quick Ben would find a way to get them all in the same place while arranging for a passing army of demigods to steamroll them without even noticing. Of course, Kellanved managed to use his power to become a god, something that Gandalf may have accomplished through deus-ex-Tolkien, and Voldemort could only fantasize about. On the third hand, Anomander Rake could face off against Tayschrenn and half a dozen powerful mags and pull out a draw - and Tayschrenn could have taken apart every spell caster on Middle Earth simultaneously. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/56 "2010-11-16T18:40:20Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Well, then I learned something today. Are the gestures with the twig still needed or does this raise things to the level of point-and-zorch? I seem to recall a wiz battle in Order of the Phoenix that looks like a gunfight with tracers–just point-and-zorch. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/57 "2010-11-16T18:45:34Z")
Quoth **Inigo Montoya** : > [@](#): > > Voldemort v. Gandalf seems a bit like Beowulf v. J. Robert Oppenheimer. One excels in direct face-to-face killin’, the other can get more killin’ done, but he needs a while to set it up. That’s about the most apt summation of it I’ve seen. And **Scuba** , Gandalf and Sauron were of the same order of being: Both were Maiar (singular Maia). Sauron was probably the most powerful of the Maiar, but Gandalf was explicitly stated to be the wisest of them. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/58 "2010-11-16T19:03:00Z")
Huh. I thought the Istari were a lower order than the Maiar. Trust the Dope to know their JRRT-verse cold. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/59 "2010-11-16T20:49:48Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Plus, they’re British - can they even _own_ shotguns? Yes - handguns are banned, not shotguns. They’re typically owned for sporting use or vermin control. ETA: and not for home defence - they must be kept very securely locked up when not in use. I realize this leaves us helpless in the face of the evil wizard menace, but to date it’s not hurt us too badly. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740/60 "2010-11-17T03:30:36Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Why are you disqualifying modern guns? I wasn’t ‘disqualifying’ them, I was just having a little fun with the argument “Ah, your magic is useless, because it requires a focus and some gestures. Allow me to prove it, by drawing this gun, pointing it at you, and shooting you!” Besides, Harry’s a 12 year old schoolboy with abandonment issues and an abusive family. Not on the top of my list of ‘people who should be issued firearms.’ 🙂 Something just occurred to me. When there are no witnesses, Gandalf has beaten a lot of badass things. When there ARE, he can be chased up a tree by a few goblins on wolves. Has anyone considered the possibility that he might just be full of crap? – To clarify, I want to see the Gandalf/Jamie match not for the swordfight, but because I want to hear Jamie’s inner commentary when Gandalf starts speechifying . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voldemort-vs-gandalf-or-other-wizards/560740.md?page=4)