# Volunteers Needed: "The War On Terror Cannot Be Won If We Fail In Iraq" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887 "2007-01-14T01:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/61 "2007-01-14T21:41:22Z")
None that I particularly feel like debating with you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/62 "2007-01-14T21:42:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] None that I particularly feel like debating with you. [/QUOTE] So I’ll repeatedly allude to them and then cut and run when called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/63 "2007-01-14T21:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] As I said before, there are plenty of good arguments for and against the war. These arguments are not some of them. [/QUOTE] They are, however, absolutely devastating arguments against the use of apocalyptic rhetoric asserting that this war is about [OMINOUS ECHO] The Survival Of Western Civilization [/OMINOUS ECHO], or even the silent acceptance of such rhetoric by the leadership of one’s faction. **RTFirefly** has made that point clearly enough, and repeatedly enough, that continued failure to address it has crossed the line from mere carelessness to outright intellecutual dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/64 "2007-01-14T22:20:52Z")
[QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] As a liberal veteran, that wasn’t my experience. When I was in, there was a much more even distribution of left & right (& centrist) members than is commonly assumed by civilians. I don’t have any figures, but a list of left/Democratic politicians who served in the military would be one illustration. [/QUOTE] My experience jibes with woodstockbirdybird’s. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/65 "2007-01-14T22:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] None that I particularly feel like debating with you. [/QUOTE] In other words, you have no such “great arguments”. A dishonest tactic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/66 "2007-01-14T23:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If I thought it were that simple I’d agree with you. And if I thought this was the right place to debate that topic I would… [/QUOTE] Then why did you bring it up? Is this the forum appropriate to make assertions you are unwilling to substantiate? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/67 "2007-01-15T00:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] In other words, you have no such “great arguments”. A dishonest tactic. [/QUOTE] No, you don’t understand. I’m not going to debate them here because, where the Iraq war is concerned it is not possible to have reasonable debates. That’s why I stopped debating the war here months ago. And frankly, I could give a rat’s ass if you like it or not. Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/68 "2007-01-15T00:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Then why did you bring it up? [/quote] It related directly to the OP. > [@](#): > > Is this the forum appropriate to make assertions you are unwilling to substantiate? I just asked a question, you’re the one who made the assertion. But yes, this is the forum to make assertions you are unwilling to substantiate. More thoughts on that [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8151822&postcount=373). ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/69 "2007-01-15T00:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] No, you don’t understand. I’m not going to debate them here because, where the Iraq war is concerned it is not possible to have reasonable debates. That’s why I stopped debating the war here months ago. And frankly, I could give a rat’s ass if you like it or not. Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. [/QUOTE] Wow! I actually agree with you for once. I sometimes print your posts to wipe my ass with. Meanwhile keep battling “them terraists” from the comfort of your living room. How many did you kill today? Chickenshit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/70 "2007-01-15T00:38:33Z")
I see. You question relates directly to the OP, my answer to that question does not. I should have gotten a ruling in advance as to pertinance and propriety. As an acknowledged authority on Board propriety, perhaps you could clarify. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/71 "2007-01-15T00:45:55Z")
BTW, Hentor, [well fucking said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8151621&postcount=50). A “me too” post? You betcha. All you wimpy chickenhawks make me ill. [Bush’s Sacrificial Americans](http://www.antiwar.com/engelhardt/?articleid=10317) Yeah, let _ **them** _ die or get their limbs blown off while you cheer the carnage from your Lazy-Boys. Barf. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/72 "2007-01-15T00:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] …Chickenshit. [/QUOTE] I hope I do not presume too much upon our comradely regard, but you’re wrong. Not all men are given to combat, even fewer are skilled, fewer still can conduct themselves nobly. Personally, I haven’t the slightest idea if I would acquit myself bravely, or shit my pants and cry. Besides, and perhaps more to the point, to belabor and insult a Canadian for not rushing to join our military brushes against absurdity. As well, it might be best to hold such awe-inspiring ferocity in reserve. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/73 "2007-01-15T00:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] No, you don’t understand. I’m not going to debate them here because, where the Iraq war is concerned it is not possible to have reasonable debates. That’s why I stopped debating the war here months ago. And frankly, I could give a rat’s ass if you like it or not. [/QUOTE] I _do_ like it, since it amounts to an admission that I’m right and you are a liar and a coward. If you didn’t intend to debate, you shouldn’t have simply asserted there are good arguments for the war; a blatantly stupid statement at this point. And if you make such an assertion, it’s cowardly to refuse to even say what they are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/74 "2007-01-15T01:12:45Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I see. You question relates directly to the OP, my answer to that question does not. [/QUOTE] I never said it didn’t. I just said I didn’t want to debate that subject here. I’ll be glad to do so in a GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/75 "2007-01-15T01:40:30Z")
Have you ever considered a career as a matador? If you can evade one point so skillfully, two shouldn’t represent much of a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/76 "2007-01-15T02:44:33Z")
The spittle-flecked responses coming from the usual subjects here are precisely why I don’t bother trying to debate this war on this message board. I’m perfectly willing to concede that there are valid arguments against the war. However, the people on the other side are absolutely unwilling to concede any reasonable arguments on the other side, and attempts to discuss them always devolves into the same tiresome sound bites, ‘chickenhawk’ accusations, and rants. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/77 "2007-01-15T02:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] We have engaged in this work because the United States has clear interests at stake: **an interest in helping to prevent the spread of a wider War in Europe** ; an interest in showing that NATO remains a credible force for peace; an interest in helping to stem the terrible, destabilizing flows of refugees this struggle is generating; and, perhaps most clearly, a humanitarian interest we all share in stopping the continuing slaughter of innocents in Bosnia.— President Bill Clinton speech, US Department of State Dispatch, April 4, 1994 (emphasis added to assist your occipital lobe) [/QUOTE] Thanks. Now attach an argument to it. You’re asserting some sort of equivalence here, but all I’m seeing is the assertion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/78 "2007-01-15T02:50:16Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Have you ever considered a career as a matador? If you can evade one point so skillfully, two shouldn’t represent much of a challenge. [/QUOTE] Physician, heal thyself. You’re the guy who won’t even defend his positions in GD. I’m happy to do it there, which is the place where it should be done. And I’ve given my reasons. If that’s enough for you, well, that’s just too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/79 "2007-01-15T03:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I _do_ like it, since it amounts to an admission that I’m right and you are a liar and a coward. [/QUOTE] This is bullshit. It’s no sort of admission, except maybe that he’s tired of talking to you. That said, **Sam** , though valid arguments can be made against just picking up and leaving Iraq now that we’ve broken it, as far as I can tell the arguments for the invasion occurring have been spectacularly shown to also be bullshit. I cannot think of one single reason the American people were given for the invasion that turned out to be true. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887/80 "2007-01-15T03:06:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] **RTF** : I think you’re getting too hung up on teh term “Fact Sheet”. I think it just means “these are the facts about what Bush’s new plan are”, or here’s what we will do. [/quote] I don’t consider it central to what I’m saying. But I confess a combination of great amusement at what supposedly responsible parties will put in a “fact sheet” these days, and a continued amazement at the Orwellian willingness of those people to twist the language. > [@](#): > > Now, I don’t doubt that the WH does consider it a fact that The War on Terror Cannot be Won if We Fail in Iraq in the same way you consider it a fact that we have already lost in Iraq. I certainly wouldn’t put it in a list of facts, but would consider it a rebuttable presumption backed by a track record of 3.75 years’ duration. IOW, it would have to be a damned strong rebuttal, explaining how this attempt to win Iraq was different from all the others, especially given that the same idiots are in charge. > [@](#): > > But I think a strong case can be made that at least one possible outcome of failure will be a worsening situation in the so-called War on Terror-- ie, failed state that becomes an al Qaeda breeding ground similar to Afghanistan. That’s especially possible if the country were to be partitioned since the Sunnis would likely end up with little or no oil revenue. True dat. I’d disagree with whether partition would make that more or less likely, but that’s a side issue for another day. The reality, as you suggest, is that an Iraq that lacks real government over all its territory (be it one government or several) has potential as a terrorist base. > [@](#): > > The invasion brought al-Qaeda into Iraq, so what’s the best way to get them out? I guess the question is, in what sense are they there now? Most accounts suggest that there is a flow of jihadis into Iraq desiring to make war on the Western infidel crusader, but one would think that would dry up once we left; young men from Egypt or wherever are less likely to be interested in traveling to Iraq to blow up Shi’ites. I’d be more worried about the actual al-Qaeda, as opposed to the seemingly bogus one operating in Iraq, moving into Iraq after we leave. But they seem to have safe harbor in Waziristan, so I’m not all _that_ worried about it, though I expect our intel people will be keeping an eye on it. And someday we may even have an Administration that uses intel in honest ways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/volunteers-needed-the-war-on-terror-cannot-be-won-if-we-fail-in-iraq/387887.md?page=5)