# 'Vosotros' in Latin America **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119 "2005-05-16T20:00:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/21 "2005-05-17T15:29:57Z")
Subjunctive in Spanish is used when there are two subjects in the same sentence. There are other uses, of course, e.g. after quizas. And for that other issue: > [@Shakira](#): > > Velvetina es mi retrato, el más reciente. Es lo que hoy deseo ser, mi cara más reservada que nace para **vosotros**. [from here](http://elpais-cali.terra.com.co/historico/ene112005/VIVIR/C311N1.html), a large Colombian daily, in it’s music/lifestyle section. I doubt that Shakira speaks archaic Spanish. With this I mean that saying that the second person plural is not used anymore in Latin American Castellano is too much of a blanket statement. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/22 "2005-05-17T15:41:11Z")
> [@Shakira](#): > > Velvetina es mi retrato, el más reciente. Es lo que hoy deseo ser, mi cara más reservada que nace para **vosotros**. That’s weird, cuz I lived in Barranquilla for a couple years–I don’t recall people using **vosotros**. Maybe I didn’t notice. Or maybe she picked it up in Bogota. Or maybe it’s an affectation. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/23 "2005-05-17T15:41:34Z")
> [@etmiller](#): > > And I’ve heard Central American parents, when talking to their children, switch from _vos_ to _usted_ in the same conversation. I think they say _usted_ to be more stern, like when the kid is misbehaving. Yes, but at the same time calling someone “usted” when you’re on familiar terms can be a major insult. The use of the terms is complex. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/24 "2005-05-17T16:15:50Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Yes, but at the same time calling someone “usted” when you’re on familiar terms can be a major insult. The use of the terms is complex. My point exactly. It depends on the dynamics between the two speakers, as well as the flux of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/25 "2005-05-17T16:55:12Z")
According to all the Spanish speakers I know personally (3 puertorriqueños, 5 cubanos, 6 dominicanos, 4 mexicanos, 1 columbiano, y 3 argentinos), _vosotros_ is never, ever used in American Spanish. Most of these people were born and raised at least until age 16 or so in their home countries, so they have extensive native experience with the language. I know that Shakira lived in Spain for a few months after her last tour, so she may have picked it up there. They tell me the only place they see it is in the Bible, like thou/thee/thy/thine in English. This explains the odd look I got when I said “Sentáos, por fa’” at a group of them at work. They knew what it meant, but they told me I should use “Sientense”. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/26 "2005-05-18T19:49:50Z")
I don’t have much to add, after all the OP and I even live in the same city, but in my limited experience \*vosotros \*is confined in Latin America to religious texts and overly verbose politicians (Balaguer). It would be ironic if it is used in any country in Latin America, after all Caribbean Spanish is considered to be archaic and we use _ustedes_. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/27 "2005-05-18T21:43:59Z")
I get it now. Formal _use_; not formal _addressing_. So **Mrs. Bricker** meant that in formal occassions, people in said countries will revert to the use and distinction of the formal and informal second person plural forms. But am I now confusing formal/polite with informal/impolite forms? I honestly don’t remember, but had always thought on terms of formal and informal, because it’s logically not “impolite” to say “tu” to someone. For what it’s worth, when someone (like a vendor) constantly uses the “usted” form with you, how do you tell him just to use to the “tu” form? Is there a specific cultural way to do this, or does it just amount to saying, “hey, Joe, use the ‘tu’ form with me, okay dude?”? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/28 "2005-05-18T22:03:44Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I get it now. Formal _use_; not formal _addressing_. So **Mrs. Bricker** meant that in formal occassions, people in said countries will revert to the use and distinction of the formal and informal second person plural forms. But am I now confusing formal/polite with informal/impolite forms? I honestly don’t remember, but had always thought on terms of formal and informal, because it’s logically not “impolite” to say “tu” to someone. It can appear rude to use _either_ form when the other is expected. It would seem rude and overly familiar to address your elderly neighbor as “tú”. If you call your spouse “usted”, though, it suggests you’re pissed at them. The distinction - where it is practiced - is analogous to calling someone by their first or last name. If you call your kid “Mr. Brown”, it sounds particularly stern. If you call your husband that, it implies distance. If you greet your 90-year-old neighbor, Mrs. Brown, with a hardy, “How’s it going, Milly?” it’ll seem rude. “Usted” is formal, compared to “tú”, but it’s not only used in formal speech, and there are occasions in formal speech that still call for “tú”. It’s a complex bit of sociolinguistics. And not being a native speaker, I’m not competent to describe every subtlety in their usage. But the “thou” comparison is good - “thou” was only used in informal circumstances in Early Modern English. Still, if you hear someone using it (and it’s not a Renaissance Fair or a Shakespeare play), chances are it’s in some formal ceremony, or in church. > [@Balthisar](#): > > For what it’s worth, when someone (like a vendor) constantly uses the “usted” form with you, how do you tell him just to use to the “tu” form? Is there a specific cultural way to do this, or does it just amount to saying, “hey, Joe, use the ‘tu’ form with me, okay dude?”? I _believe_ there’s some sort of formal phrase for it, but I can’t quite dig it out of the ol’ memory bank at the moment, especially as there are similar phrases in the other Romance languages. Every word I learn in one language causes some word in another language to fall out of my head. When people have asked me to call them “tú”, though, it _was_ pretty much like you’re describing. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/29 "2005-05-18T23:27:58Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Every word I learn in one language causes some word in another language to fall out of my head. Heh. I used to be quite fluent in German, not quite to where I am in Spanish, but able to get around. Now, though, I say the same thing you said any time anyone asks me about it. 🙂 The scary thing is, it sometimes seems to happen to me in _English_. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/30 "2005-05-19T00:38:59Z")
I always thought that the verb used to tell someone to call you “tú” instead of “usted” was _tutear_. Maybe it’s just some Puertorican/Caribbean slang, but I’ve heard it used in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/31 "2005-05-19T07:41:17Z")
Lemme revise some crappy writing. > [@Excalibre](#): > > The distinction - where it is practiced - is analogous to calling someone by their first or last name. This distinction is practiced everywhere, and while it may be diminishing in certain registers in certain groups in certain places, I’m not aware of anywhere that _doesn’t_ maintain this distinction at all. I had a brain fart. > [@Excalibre](#): > > But the “thou” comparison is good - “thou” was only used in informal circumstances in Early Modern English. No, “thou” was equivalent to the “informal” or “familiar” _tú_ - it shows up a whole bunch of times in the Bible, and that was definitely formal writing. It was used in formal and informal circumstances, but it was the less explicitly polite form used in addressing a person. > [@Balthisar](#): > > Heh. I used to be quite fluent in German, not quite to where I am in Spanish, but able to get around. Now, though, I say the same thing you said any time anyone asks me about it. 🙂 The scary thing is, it sometimes seems to happen to me in _English_. Happens to me all the time. It’s useful to be around people who speak enough Spanish so that when I give up in frustration and grab the Spanish word, they understand me. 🙂 > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I always thought that the verb used to tell someone to call you “tú” instead of “usted” was _tutear_. Maybe it’s just some Puertorican/Caribbean slang, but I’ve heard it used in that context. Definitely a word in common use (the French equivealent is “tutoyer”; I believe there is no single-word equivalent in Italian.) However, I’m not sure if there’s a phrase - sort of an ersatz “ceremony” - when two people decide to tutear. I’ve heard that there’s an old custom in Germany (probably only in some places) where the switch from _Sie_ to _die_ between men (is that right? I only know as much German as I’ve picked up from the opening number in _Cabaret_) involves drinking a beer with linked arms. The Germans are fun. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119/32 "2005-05-19T12:26:30Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Definitely a word in common use (the French equivealent is “tutoyer”; I believe there is no single-word equivalent in Italian.) However, I’m not sure if there’s a phrase - sort of an ersatz “ceremony” - when two people decide to tutear. Yes, \*tutear \*is a perfectly cromulent term in Spanish. And no, there’s no ceremony involved in the decision to start using \*tu \*instead of _usted_. A casual “me puedes tutear” would suffice. Darn, those Germans know how to do stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vosotros-in-latin-america/304119.md?page=1)