# Voter fraud in the U.S. – primary perpetrated by left-leaning organizations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749 "2012-08-07T15:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/41 "2012-08-08T19:03:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s _possible_. It’s also unlikely, uncited, and quite frankly ludicrous if you really look into the issue. I’d go so far as to say it’s up there with the Birther crisis as far as stupid conspiracy theories go. The fact that we know the _source_ of the outcry doesn’t help it either: we can tell “this isn’t grassroots, this was brought out by these guys”. Then we can ask, “Was it manufactured?” > > Yes. Yes, it was. Not sure of your meaning there. I simply meant that the Democratic political machines in big cities have no incentive to disprove these claims, and one of those reasons is that it discourages the opposition. I don’t think they started these claims at all. There is the noted case in the 1960 election where Joseph Kennedy made a joke about not paying for a landslide. However in that case I believe he was trying to exagerrate his own influence. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/42 "2012-08-08T19:24:49Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Prohibitive cost-effectiveness ratio? Fear of getting arrested by whistleblowers? Other controls in place, such as regularly-run ballot testing? All three potentially valid options. I’ll admit that I don’t actually know if the last option exists, but I think it’s safe to assume it does – we’re not retarded here in the 21st century. But the first two complaints? Definitely valid. > > Let’s assume that in the best-case scenario, any given person can vote maybe a couple of times an hour – getting from polling station to polling station, waiting in line, finding the next place to hit, et cetera. If this guy does it alone, he could maybe vote a few dozen times in person. If he doesn’t, he has to hire other people, each of which need to get paid and can also vote a few hundred times in person. In order to even make a noticeable dent, he’d have to hire a hundred or so people (which is already heading towards a cost of several thousand dollars), and _all of them would need to be willing to do something highly anti-american and illegal_ – otherwise, he’s gonna get busted by one of 'em. In fact, this ludicrously low risk-reward scenario – where the payoff is so miniscule, why bother? – is why voter fraud is essentially non-existent. It’s why concentrated efforts by republicans across the country to expose voter fraud have come up with a few dozen counts over the last decade. In-person voter fraud is a bogus issue. > > Oh, and as for your citation, that’s not proof of voter fraud occurring. That’s _allegations_ of voter fraud occurring. Biiiig difference. Oh, and look: > > Huh, fancy that. Nothing so crude-the Ward Boss has the ballots premarked before the election-he just feeds them into the machine. Since no voter ID is required, nobody says anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/43 "2012-08-08T19:51:49Z")
Do we even have \*ward \*bosses anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/44 "2012-08-08T19:56:25Z")
Aside from the fact that Ralph has no cites and is just offering pure fantasy, how would voter ID keep ward bosses from pre-marking ballots? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/45 "2012-08-08T20:00:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nothing so crude-the Ward Boss has the ballots premarked before the election-he just feeds them into the machine. Since no voter ID is required, nobody says anything. That would not be voter fraud, that would be ballot-box stuffing; different thing entirely, and not preventable, obviously, by requiring the voter to show ID. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/46 "2012-08-08T20:15:47Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nothing so crude-the Ward Boss has the ballots premarked before the election-he just feeds them into the machine. Since no voter ID is required, nobody says anything. Again, unless his first name is Ward, Mr. Boss isn’t a cite, it’s a fantasy villain. Name ONE ward boss who has done this. Name the parties involved, the date, the location. This is the second request for an actual instance of this crime occurring. Ignore this, and I’ll assume you’re just making it up. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/47 "2012-08-08T20:33:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Aside from the fact that Ralph has no cites and is just offering pure fantasy, how would voter ID keep ward bosses from pre-marking ballots? Exactly. This is the point I don’t get about people who have a hard-on about enacting voter ID laws. If you really think people are conspiring to sway elections by committing large scale voter registration fraud, then rounding up actual people to go vote in multiple districts, why would an ID law stop them? All they need to do is have a poll worker they know or paid “check” the IDs. Why would that small stumbling block deter someone conducting large scale fraud involving multiple people? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/48 "2012-08-08T21:19:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nothing so crude-the Ward Boss has the ballots premarked before the election-he just feeds them into the machine. Since no voter ID is required, nobody says anything. Yes. Of course, you have to realize, I was arguing not against an _actual_ case, but against your feverish imagined hypothetical, for which you have yet to offer evidence of actually happening. And even then, you know what’s interesting? Voter ID laws wouldn’t stop this. In fact, nothing short of a complete crackdown on the system would. I’m kind of confused why you think that voter ID would stop him from feeding them into the machine. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Not sure of your meaning there. I simply meant that the Democratic political machines in big cities have no incentive to disprove these claims, and one of those reasons is that it discourages the opposition. I don’t think they started these claims at all. > > There is the noted case in the 1960 election where Joseph Kennedy made a joke about not paying for a landslide. However in that case I believe he was trying to exagerrate his own influence. I think we’re talking past each other tbh, I’m just confused. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/49 "2012-08-08T21:29:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The entire issue in 1960 was the continuation of the Republican theme that Democrats only win elections by nefarious means. I don’t recall the name of the person, but he was active in politics at the time, and a witness to the process of review in Illinois. He stated clearly that the Republican controlled State of Illinois officials backed off the concept of a review of the election as soon as it no longer focused solely on Chicago, but the entire state. > > As for the Democratic city machines, it’s entirely possible they thrive on this concept of controlling the ballot to discourage opposition efforts. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s _possible_. It’s also unlikely, uncited, and quite frankly ludicrous if you really look into the issue. I’d go so far as to say it’s up there with the Birther crisis as far as stupid conspiracy theories go. The fact that we know the _source_ of the outcry doesn’t help it either: we can tell “this isn’t grassroots, this was brought out by these guys”. Then we can ask, “Was it manufactured?” > > Yes. Yes, it was. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think we’re talking past each other tbh, I’m just confused. I assume you were responding to my assertion that the State of Illinois Republicans didn’t want a state wide review of the 1960 election, or my speculation that Democratic politicians in big cities didn’t mind their reputation for rigging elections. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/50 "2012-08-09T00:59:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nothing so crude-the Ward Boss has the ballots premarked before the election-he just feeds them into the machine. Since no voter ID is required, nobody says anything. You’re in Massachusetts. From what I understand of the laws here, you have to either return the census forms your city elections department sends out every year or have voted in the last election to keep from showing ID. It’s been years since I’ve had that happen. I’m really not sure how the scam you’re proposing is supposed to work. The ward boss (whatever you mean by that) has to get the ballots one at a time by giving the poll worker a name and address of a registered voter who hasn’t been marked as having to show ID by the criteria mentioned above. Then he has to fill out the ballot, and give his name and address to a different poll worker when he puts it in the machine. It’s far from a foolproof system, but there’s no point of cheating unless you do it on a large scale. And any effort to do it at that scale is going to drastically increase the chance of getting caught, or require a lot of co-conspirators. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/51 "2012-08-09T02:04:51Z")
Voter registration fraud will be more frequently associated with leftish organizations. They may or may not be perpetrating the fraud, but they’re largely the ones handing in the fraudulent forms. That’s because conservative and right-leaning groups do registration drives less often (presumably because Republicans are philosophically inclined to say that people who want to register to vote should shlep down to the board of elections rather than doing it at a table in the mall). > [@TriPolar](#): > > Claiming voter fraud is a Republican tradition. Whenever a Republican loses an election they will trot out the claim that _African Americans, Hispanics, and Homeless People_\* have been paid or coerced to vote for Democrats. Arguably true; it’s the rare election nowadays in which the Republican candidate is better for those demographics than the Democrat is. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Voter fraud is mainly carried out by the big city political machines. The heyday of machine politics is long past, though at the time it was mostly Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/52 "2012-08-09T02:32:47Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > …That’s because conservative and right-leaning groups do registration drives less often (presumably because Republicans are philosophically inclined to say that people who want to register to vote should shlep down to the board of elections rather than doing it at a table in the mall)… That could be it, I suppose, presuming that we think it likely that Republicans, or any politician of any stripe, will forego political power on some principle. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/53 "2012-08-09T15:34:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That could be it, I suppose, presuming that we think it likely that Republicans, or any politician of any stripe, will forego political power on some principle. There is also the issue that it is felt that a majority of unregistered voters in cities (where registration drives are more practical) would vote Democratic. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/54 "2012-08-09T15:42:06Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Arguably true; it’s the rare election nowadays in which the Republican candidate is better for those demographics than the Democrat is. Why did you underline the word ‘coerced’ when you quoted my post? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/55 "2012-08-09T21:25:56Z")
The trouble with ballot-box stuffing is that (a) you have to get your hands on ballots ahead of time, (b) you have to put them in the box, and © you have to get the polling staff to fudge the details somehow so that the vote total from the box agrees with the total counted votes cast. If your elections are like Canada’s, voters are checked off the list as they vote; a scrutineer from each party watches the vote process, the checking off, and the ballot counting. It’s tricky to do much wholesale damage in that situation. (as I mentioned, a fellow student, somewhat of an idealist from Chicago in the 1970’s, mentioned that he was given a hard time by scrutineers from the Republicans as well as fellow Democrats when he questioned something fishy. If you’ve corrupted the entire process, well, you can do what you want.) I recall also a discussion about this (some talk show recently) where the (right wing) side mentioned that there were severe penalties for challenging legitimate voters. It was in the context of a Republican volunteer claiming “Democratic voters claiming to be students at the university are voting fraudulently”. he said when he asked Republican higher ups about it, they told him to drop his objections because he could face a serious lawsuit even if he was right, if he tried to deny a legitimate voter the right to vote. That sounded like the usual Urban legend BS to me, but what is the case in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/56 "2012-08-09T22:02:12Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > There is also the issue that it is felt that a majority of unregistered voters in cities (where registration drives are more practical) would vote Democratic. That is quite likely true. The remedy I would suggest would not to be avoid the registration of new voters, but to alter the agenda to fit the changing demographics. That this might require Republicans to offer views and agendas more aligned with mine own does not alarm me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/57 "2012-08-09T22:35:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That is quite likely true. The remedy I would suggest would not to be avoid the registration of new voters, but to alter the agenda to fit the changing demographics. That this might require Republicans to offer views and agendas more aligned with mine own does not alarm me. My solution is so much simpler. Let everyone who shows up vote. Their credentials can be checked after the fact. The only possible violation of law should be in voting more than once or misrepresenting your identity in a substantial manner. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/58 "2012-08-10T00:01:00Z")
And this just in, from _The Natio_n by way of _Daily Kos_.. > **[Ohio sets up one early-voting system for Republican counties, another for...](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/09/1118341/-Ohio-sets-up-one-early-voting-system-for-Republican-counties-another-for-Democratic-counties?detail=hide)** > > Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted > > In Ohio, Republican-approved cutbacks in early voting will disproportionately disfranchise African American voters who live in the state's most heavily populated ... \*\*Ohio sets up one early-voting system for Republican counties, another for Democratic counties \*\* > [@](#): > > In Ohio, Republican-approved cutbacks in early voting will disproportionately disfranchise African American voters who live in the state’s most heavily populated counties. Ari Berman at The Nation gives us the skinny. > In Cleveland’s Cuyahoga County, African Americans make up 28 percent of the population but were 56 of early voters in 2008. In Columbus’s Franklin County, they make up 20 percent of the population but were 34 percent of early voters. > > That early voting was a product of the mess in 2004 when voting machines were distributed in such a way as to create long lines in predominately Democratic, minority precincts. Many voters simply gave up and went home. A report by the Democratic National Committee estimated that 174,000 voters left the queues. George W. Bush won in Ohio with 118,000 votes. Subsequently, Ohio added 35 early-voting days to the election calendar and 2008 went much smoother. Barack Obama won a majority of the votes in Ohio. > > As a consequence, Republicans cut early voting back for the upcoming election from 35 days to 11 days, with the three days right before the election eliminated… Comment seems superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/59 "2012-08-10T02:04:46Z")
> [@FeAudrey](#): > > People circulate voting multiple times, using different names in different precincts. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749/60 "2012-08-10T02:18:33Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Cite? _Gangs of New York,_ I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-in-the-u-s-primary-perpetrated-by-left-leaning-organizations/630749.md?page=4)