Also note that there’s a difference between showing proof of identity and showing a photo ID card. In Montana, for instance (where I have the most experience), a voter has to show some proof of identity, but acceptable proof includes the paper (no photo) voter registration card mailed out to all voters, or a utility bill, or any piece of mail addressed to the person from the state or federal government, or a few other options. It’s enough that it’d be quite tough for “Mickey Mouse” to prove himself, while still not being a significant burden on legitimate voters.
Claiming voter fraud is a Republican tradition. Whenever a Republican loses an election they will trot out the claim that African Americans, Hispanics, and Homeless People* have been paid or coerced to vote for Democrats. This practice is older than I am and many Republicans have heard this so often that they believe it. As a result, most investigations of voter fraud are started and conducted by Republicans, so any statistics are inconclusive and misleading.
As an example of this effect, my experience in politics shows that Republicans conduct the most voter fraud, and they usually do so by manipulation of the voting process by rigging voting machines, miscounting, intimidation, misprinting of ballots, and similar techniques to prevent people from voting and changing results. But those are just my limited experiences, and if I had collected hard statistics it would still show no conclusive information about this topic. The answer to this question is unknown, because there is no concerted effort to determine this on a factual basis.
*Those are not the actual words they use.
Voter fraud is mainly carried out by the big city political machines. Take Cook County (Chicago): the wards are all tightly controlled by a “ward boss”-who maintains the voting lists/rolls. Part of his job is to follow elderly voters-when they move to nursing homes, become mentally incompetent, or move to a cemetery , he assigns a flunky that person’s identity. Hence, the machine maintains its power-no “reform” candidates can get their foot in, because the ward bosses block nomination papers, forge signatures, etc. In this way, the Daley Machine was able to dominate Chicago for 60+ years. Chicago is important to all presidential candidates, because the Daley machine was able to reliably deliver votes-which is why Joe Kennedy Sr. was able to buy the 1960 presidential election for his son.
The move to the suburbs has diluted the power of the big city machines, but it is still there-and aided by groups like “Acorn” they may well retain their decisive edge in national elections.
Of course, the very act of paying people per name registered was illegal where ACORN did it in Nevada. How does that make them a “victim” of anything?
Because they were blamed for obeying the law, by flagging suspicious registrations when they were turned in.
ralph124c, Chicago is never important for presidential candidates, because Illinois is one of those “safe states” you hear about. The only way a Democrat is going to lose Illinois is if he’s so incompetent that he gets blown out of the water everywhere else, in which case Illinois is just the icing on the Republican’s cake.
Several points:
A fellow student I went to college with, in the 1970’s, told me of his stint scrutineering as a (Democratic) naive young type in Chicago. Even the Rpublican scrutineer told him to stop making waves about obvious problems with voters.
Maybe Chicago has cleaned up over the years maybe not… 
Remember Obama got his start by challenging his opponent in the primaries over the validity of the signatures on his nomination form. If a guy running for a state or federal position who gets signatures of “valdi” voters has so many errors that he did not have enough signatures to qualify, what does that say about the quality of the voters list?
The documented cases of actual voter fraud are few and far between. This may be due o poor enforcement, but with anation-wide push to demonstrate “the other side” is playing dirty (and a generally nasty atmosphere in politics nowadays) it would be odd if there were widespread fraud but it could not even be found in enough detail to make a news story.
I worked for a while as a volunteer for the Conservative party in Canada, and there were the same accusations. The “other side” was bussing loads of indigents from poll to poll to declare they were valid voters, and vote early and often. These were always “friend of a friend” stories, and again no substantiation. What I did find was that, oddly enough, poor people with disorganized social and economic lives lacked the stability and permanence to have established long term residences and adequate cocumentation. If you can’t afford a car or a house, you probably don’t have a drivers’ license or any other documentation. From what I’ve read on the news, this is the case in the USA too.
Acorn in some ways was a victim too. Many state laws, for example, forbid the agency from discarding any registration cards, no matter how obviously fraudulent. This is to prevent groups from registering only their voters, and fooling the other party’s voters ino thinking they have been registered. Florida, IIRC, mandated this be done within 48 hours.
Many states have rules that require government ID of various types (i.e. photo ID). Others also forbid felons from voting, etc. The general trend is that these are Republican governments implementing measures that use the spectre of busloads of fraudulent poor people voting Democrat - but the fact that they typically make registration difficult for poor, Democratic, legitimate voters is apparently a bonus.
Of course, with ID requirements, it’s hard to see how there could be any real voter fraud, unless the scrutineers and poll workers can’t tell a real license from a fake one, or someone is in the business of not only organizing busloads of voters but also creating very real-looking fake ID’s, a whole greater level of criminal offense nowadays. Think of the level of organization required - first you must get fake voters registered, then you must create fake IDs that match the voter registration and the person doing the impersonation, etc.
This is really interesting. I’m not going to ask you, to begin with, to cite this in the plural. All I’d like is for you to cite this in the singular. Which ward boss are you talking about, by name? Which one elderly voter are you talking about, by name? Which one flunky are you talking about, by name?
I mean, perhaps this is the PERFECT CRIME, that leaves no evidence whatsoever of its commission. But then, how do you know it occurs?
If, however, it’s not the PERFECT CRIME, then I’d love to look at a single example of its occurrence.
Just remember, Voter Fraud as an issue is primarily a “Bright Shiny Object Over Here” to prevent examination of the much more critical issue - Election Fraud. They don’t really care who votes - just how they get ‘counted’.
That was one branch, and it was an oversight, not some nefarious plan. It wasn’t done in secret, it was done openly, apparently by someone who didn’t know any better.
Why even mention it? They were still victims of their contractors.
It’s probably time to move this over to Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
There was a recent study done in Tennessee which concluded that our new Voter ID law actually hurt the GOP more than the Democrats. Because low-income people (who are usually the ones lacking ID) living near urban areas are more likely to vote Democratic and there are more places like the DMV to obtain the free state ID. However, poor people in very rural areas (where they vote overwhelmingly Republican) often have to travel to neighboring counties, or further, to obtain ID.
Okay guys, just a foreword in this debate.
Bricker is not a good person to talk to about this. Why? Because he has shown very conclusively in this thread that he doesn’t give a damn about actual voter fraud numbers, whether or not voter ID helps the system work better, or anything else – he cares whether or not it helps his side, and whether or not it is legal. So I wouldn’t bother.
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
Seriously, guys, throwing around claims like this is nice and all, but without backing, it’s like me claiming that Bush stole the 2004 election because Diebold machines were rigged and then failing to provide a cite – if it isn’t obvious that I’m talking out of my ass, it should be.
Here ya go:1960 United States presidential election - Wikipedia
My personal experience: I vote every time there is an election. At NO time have I EVER been asked to produce identification-all that is asked is my name and address.
If a ward boss chooses to do so, he can make up any number of people who live at a certain address-he (or anyone else) can vote in such a person’s name. If no ID is required, who would stop him/her?
I think you may have slightly misinterpreted the request for a citation.
I note with approval the calm, GD civility with which you phrase your response.
Prohibitive cost-effectiveness ratio? Fear of getting arrested by whistleblowers? Other controls in place, such as regularly-run ballot testing? All three potentially valid options. I’ll admit that I don’t actually know if the last option exists, but I think it’s safe to assume it does – we’re not retarded here in the 21st century. But the first two complaints? Definitely valid.
Let’s assume that in the best-case scenario, any given person can vote maybe a couple of times an hour – getting from polling station to polling station, waiting in line, finding the next place to hit, et cetera. If this guy does it alone, he could maybe vote a few dozen times in person. If he doesn’t, he has to hire other people, each of which need to get paid and can also vote a few hundred times in person. In order to even make a noticeable dent, he’d have to hire a hundred or so people (which is already heading towards a cost of several thousand dollars), and all of them would need to be willing to do something highly anti-american and illegal – otherwise, he’s gonna get busted by one of 'em. In fact, this ludicrously low risk-reward scenario – where the payoff is so miniscule, why bother? – is why voter fraud is essentially non-existent. It’s why concentrated efforts by republicans across the country to expose voter fraud have come up with a few dozen counts over the last decade. In-person voter fraud is a bogus issue.
Oh, and as for your citation, that’s not proof of voter fraud occurring. That’s allegations of voter fraud occurring. Biiiig difference. Oh, and look:
Huh, fancy that.
The entire issue in 1960 was the continuation of the Republican theme that Democrats only win elections by nefarious means. I don’t recall the name of the person, but he was active in politics at the time, and a witness to the process of review in Illinois. He stated clearly that the Republican controlled State of Illinois officials backed off the concept of a review of the election as soon as it no longer focused solely on Chicago, but the entire state.
As for the Democratic city machines, it’s entirely possible they thrive on this concept of controlling the ballot to discourage opposition efforts.
It’s possible. It’s also unlikely, uncited, and quite frankly ludicrous if you really look into the issue. I’d go so far as to say it’s up there with the Birther crisis as far as stupid conspiracy theories go. The fact that we know the source of the outcry doesn’t help it either: we can tell “this isn’t grassroots, this was brought out by these guys”. Then we can ask, “Was it manufactured?”
Yes. Yes, it was.
There were several investigations. Here’s one:
Here’s a Congressional probe:
http://www.civilrights.org/voting-rights/election-reform/voter-suppression.html
There were requests for a 2007 probe into 2004, but I don’t know what came of it.