# "Voter fraud" think-tank mysteriously vanishes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483 "2007-06-10T18:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/1 "2007-06-10T18:49:27Z")
Story in [this](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hasen_10edi.ART.State.Edition1.436da28.html) editorial by law professor Richard Hasen in the _Dallas Morning News._ Also at [BradBlog.](http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4647) Info on the American Center for Voting Rights at [SourceWatch.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Center_for_Voting_Rights_Legislative_Fund) It appears that, in light of Congress’ investigation of the DoJ attorney firings – clearly part of a strategy to use “voter fraud” as a pretext to challenge poor/minority/Dem voters in future elections – the people involved in ACVR realized the game was up and folded their tents. 1. Is there any other plausible explanation? 2. Will all this be sufficient to take “voter fraud” off the national agenda? Hasen doesn’t think so: > [@](#): > > But despite the demise of the voting rights center, the idea that there is massive polling-place voter fraud has, perhaps irrevocably, entered the public consciousness. It has infected even the Supreme Court’s thinking about voter-ID laws. And it has provided intellectual cover for the continued partisan pursuit of voter-ID laws that may suppress minority votes. Is Hasen right? The Election Assistance Commission, BTW, in 2006 commissioned a study of “voter fraud”. The authors found practically no evidence of it, but the EAC, without their consent, altered the report prior to publication to say the pervasiveness of voter fraud is “open to debate,” and gagged the authors from discussing it publicly. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418643) thread. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/2 "2007-06-11T12:35:40Z")
**"Voter fraud" think-tank mysteriously vanishes** I’d like to toss out a hypothetical to you **BrainGlutton**. If I flew in as a tourist from Australia and managed to get through the US legal immigrant defensive perimeter at some international airport. If I then, during my visit, decided it would be fun to register and cast a vote at a US federal election, (It should be easy, I don’t need to show ID or any other kind of proof of eligibility) would you consider that to be a case of voter fraud? (Disregard the fact that the premise of the hypothetical is ridiculous. No one from Australia would actually want to do something like that). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/3 "2007-06-11T12:43:09Z")
> [@Aquila Be](#): > > No one from Australia would actually want to do something like that). 😉 Just to clarify, I meant that no one from Australia would want to emigrate to the USA illegally. (The land of OZ is a God Zone, after all). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/4 "2007-06-11T12:46:36Z")
I’ll take a stab at the hypothetical. It might be possible for you to cast a ballot in a US election. But if preventing you from doing that keeps more legitimate votes from being cast, then the cure is worse than the disease. The number of voter fraud cases is very small. The number of people that would be disenfranchised by tightening up the requirements or their enforcements is larger. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/5 "2007-06-11T13:22:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The Election Assistance Commission, BTW, in 2006 commissioned a study of “voter fraud”. The authors found practically no evidence of it, but the EAC, without their consent, altered the report prior to publication to say the pervasiveness of voter fraud is “open to debate,” and gagged the authors from discussing it publicly. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418643) thread. [/QUOTE] Heh heh heh. In the 2006 election, Michigan voters passed the Michigan Civil Right’s Initiative that prevented colleges and universities from employing affirmative action programs. To get this initiative on the ballot, MCRI went to areas in Detroit and purposefully lied to minorities signatories by claiming the initiative was for the continuation of Affirmative Action programs. The Governor did nothing. The Legislature did nothing. The Michigan Board of Canvassars did nothing. On August 29th, District Court Judge Tarnow ruled that MCRI had engaged in "systemic voter fraud"and that michigan citizens should be concerned “by the indifference exhibited by state agencies who could have investigated and addressed MCRI’s actions but failed to do so.” In any case, despite the voter fraud, he still allowed MCRI to stay on the ballot where it won 58% of the vote. You can see the opinion [here](http://www.bamn.com/ce/2006/060829-tarnow-decision.pdf). It’s a hilarious read. Voter fraud is real and its not enforced at the state and federal level. It boggles the mind. It burns me up me that someone like Paris Hilton is wasting air in jail, while Ward Connerly (who defrauded mostly minority voters in the petition) is walking the streets free as a bird. Where is the justice? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/6 "2007-06-11T13:26:06Z")
I believe the topic is fraud _by_ voters, not fraud _against_ voters. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/7 "2007-06-11T14:01:27Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] The number of voter fraud cases is very small. [/quote] I vaguely recall that article. I see someone has just provided a cite. But just because it’s in a report, official or quasi official, partisan or allegedly non partisan, why do you assume it’s truthful and valid? Assuming you don’t automatically believe anything you read in a newspaper, why lend more credence to this kind of report? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The number of people that would be disenfranchised by tightening up the requirements or their enforcements is larger. And this would be bad? An invalid vote is a fraudulent vote. A vote cast by someone who has entered the country illegally is not valid, whether they vote the way you approve or not. If the voter is not eligible to vote then the term ‘disfranchisement’ does not apply. A party that gains power because of a preponderence of covert fraudulent votes is no better than a government that takes power through overt military force. In both cases, you end up with a junta. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/8 "2007-06-11T14:22:42Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] And this would be bad? An invalid vote is a fraudulent vote. A vote cast by someone who has entered the country illegally is not valid, whether they vote the way you approve or not. [/QUOTE] I think we’re talking apples and oranges here. What I’m concerned about is that stricter registration requirements and new ID cards place an undue burden on the lower economic class and will discourage voting among people who otherwise are fully entitled to do so. As we saw in Ohio in 2004, when the election officials want to rig an election, one way to do so is to distribute the voting machines in such a way so that those that will tend to vote the “wrong” way have to wait for hours to cast their ballots while those that will tend to vote Republican will breeze right through. This “concern” about voter fraud is a fig leaf to cover their intent which is to minimize electoral participation by the underclass. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/9 "2007-06-11T14:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I believe the topic is fraud _by_ voters, not fraud _against_ voters. [/QUOTE] My mistake, feel free to delete my previous post. Thank you. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/10 "2007-06-11T14:58:47Z")
I’m having a hard time understanding how a small cabal can see to it that enought fraudulent votes get cast to sway the results of an election. But it’s easy to see how such a cabal–well placed in state government–can sway an election by suppressing large numbers of votes. They can feed misleading information to minority communities, be excessively strict in processing registration forms, minimize the number of available voting machines, use flimsy pretexts to purge the rolls, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/11 "2007-06-11T17:50:57Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I think we’re talking apples and oranges here. What I’m concerned about is that stricter registration requirements and new ID cards place an undue burden on the lower economic class and will discourage voting among people who otherwise are fully entitled to do so. As we saw in Ohio in 2004, when the election officials want to rig an election, one way to do so is to distribute the voting machines in such a way so that those that will tend to vote the “wrong” way have to wait for hours to cast their ballots while those that will tend to vote Republican will breeze right through. This “concern” about voter fraud is a fig leaf to cover their intent which is to minimize electoral participation by the underclass. [/QUOTE] It seems we have a strawman vs strawman battle going here. Is there any proof that requiring that an ID be shown would keep people away from the polls in droves? Or even in trickles? How many people who are entitled to vote, don’t have some form of ID already? Drivers/non-drivers ID, military ID, school ID, passport. Every job that I’ve ever had has required ID before I can be hired, and often multiple forms of ID. Every paycheck I’ve cashed, every bank account I’ve opened, every apartment I’ve rented. How many people are we really talking about here? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/12 "2007-06-11T19:43:59Z")
[QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] It seems we have a strawman vs strawman battle going here. Is there any proof that requiring that an ID be shown would keep people away from the polls in droves? Or even in trickles? How many people who are entitled to vote, don’t have some form of ID already? Drivers/non-drivers ID, military ID, school ID, passport. Every job that I’ve ever had has required ID before I can be hired, and often multiple forms of ID. Every paycheck I’ve cashed, every bank account I’ve opened, every apartment I’ve rented. How many people are we really talking about here? [/QUOTE] If you consider it strawman vs. strawman shouldn’t you be asking about the other side of the question as well? Or are some strawmen more equal than others? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/13 "2007-06-12T00:03:14Z")
_et tu, quoque?_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/14 "2007-06-12T00:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If I flew in as a tourist from Australia and managed to get through the US legal immigrant defensive perimeter at some international airport. If I then, during my visit, decided it would be fun to register and cast a vote at a US federal election, (It should be easy, I don’t need to show ID or any other kind of proof of eligibility) would you consider that to be a case of voter fraud? [/QUOTE] Yes, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/15 "2007-06-12T00:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] I vaguely recall that article. I see someone has just provided a cite. But just because it’s in a report, official or quasi official, partisan or allegedly non partisan, why do you assume it’s truthful and valid? Assuming you don’t automatically believe anything you read in a newspaper, why lend more credence to this kind of report? [/quote] In this case, because that is the conclusion when you apply Occam’s Razor, as Hasen explains in his editorial: > [@](#): > > At least in hindsight, the center’s line of argument is easily deconstructed. First, arguing by anecdote is dangerous business. A new report by Lorraine Minnite of Barnard College looks at these anecdotes and shows them to be, for the most part, wholly spurious. Sure, one can find a rare case of someone voting in two jurisdictions, but nothing extensive or systematic has been unearthed or documented. > > But perhaps most importantly, the idea of massive polling-place fraud (through the use of inflated voter rolls) is inherently incredible. Suppose I want to swing the Missouri election for my preferred presidential candidate. I would have to figure out who the fake, dead or missing people on the registration rolls are, then pay a lot of other individuals to go to the polling place and claim to be that person, without any return guarantee – thanks to the secret ballot – that any of them will cast a vote for my preferred candidate. > > Those who do show up at the polls run the risk of being detected and charged with a felony. And for what – $10? Polling-place fraud, in short, makes no sense. [QUOTE=Aquila Be] And this would be bad? [/quote] Yes. [QUOTE=Aquila Be] A party that gains power because of a preponderence of covert fraudulent votes is no better than a government that takes power through overt military force. [/QUOTE] Nor is a government that gains power by suppressing legitimate votes. The difference being, the latter has actually **happened.** ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/16 "2007-06-12T01:03:08Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] But just because it’s in a report, official or quasi official, partisan or allegedly non partisan, why do you assume it’s truthful and valid? [/QUOTE] A carefully-researched report establishes a _prima facie_ case for its conclusions. They’re certainly not unassailable, but absent a convincing assault, yeah, I’ll assume it’s truthful and valid, especially when it’s saying, “This thing that nobody’s demonstrated is a problem? we can’t find any evidence that it’s a problem.” The ball is now in the court of those who claim that voter fraud is a significant problem to make their case. Hell, it’s **been** in their court for awhile, but now it’s even more in their court. And it’s an excellent point that a suppressed vote is at least as bad as a fraudulent vote: any solution that suppresses even one more legitimate vote than fraudulent vote is a system that’s worse than doing nothing. A proposed change must demonstrate that it is unlikely to be worse than the current state of affairs, as any true conservative will by definition agree. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/17 "2007-06-12T01:05:10Z")
Nobody has yet addressed the most interesting question: Why did the American Center for Voting Rights simply and suddenly and without explanation disappear up its own asshole? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/18 "2007-06-12T01:25:22Z")
The Rapture (Beta release) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/19 "2007-06-12T01:35:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why did the American Center for Voting Rights simply and suddenly and without explanation disappear up its own asshole? [/QUOTE] I get 30,100 hits at Google when I search on “American Center for Voting Rights” AND Abramoff. The head of the [Council of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy](http://www.crea-online.org/), which got its start with Abramoff money, just plead guilty [to tax evasion and obstructing a Senate investigation into the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal.](http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1181293540812) Perhaps the American Center for Voting Rights is simply another arm of that ‘culture of corruption’ which the Abramoff investigation has rendered unprofitable for the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483/20 "2007-06-12T07:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If I then, during my visit, decided it would be fun to register and cast a vote at a US federal election, (It should be easy, I don’t need to show ID or any other kind of proof of eligibility) would you consider that to be a case of voter fraud? [/QUOTE] I don’t see how you think that would be easy. Here in Minnesota, you have to have either a Minnesota Drivers License or a US Social Security Number to put on your application. I suppose you could do a mail-in application, and simply make up some numbers, but they are checked (at least, the Mn Drivers License one is). Plus there are registration deadlines & waiting periods, so unless it’s a fairly extended visit (several weeks), you would have to be in one of the seven states that allow election-day registration. As far as I know, all of them require documentation when you register. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-think-tank-mysteriously-vanishes/407483.md?page=2)