# Voter fraud vs. voting machine tampering - which is a bigger concern? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 15, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302 "2012-07-15T14:37:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/1 "2012-07-15T14:37:37Z")
This post is mostly directed at **Bricker** and those who agree with him, regarding the need for stricter measures to prevent voter fraud. As I understand it from reading his posts, one of his primary concerns is that of ensuring _voter confidence_ – that is, although there is little evidence of voter fraud in any significant quantity, we cannot _prove_ it hasn’t been more widespread, or that it won’t become more common in future elections. Essentially, it’s a sensible preventative measure that establishes confidence that our elections aren’t being influenced by people voting unlawfully. With that in mind, for people who agree with the above, how do you feel about voting machines (Diebold, et al.) and their inherent vulnerability to tampering? I find the two issues extremely analogous. In both cases there is an obvious threat to the integrity of the vote. In both cases there is no current hard evidence that the threat has been _meaningfully realized_, but it _could_ be going on undetected, now or in the future. And in both cases, the confidence of the electorate is being undermined by the possibility and ease of fraud. Would Dopers who are proponents of strict voter ID laws also be in favor of disallowing the use of vulnerable voting machines, until such time as neutral technically-minded observers declare them safe? I think it’s beyond question that voting machines are easy to tamper with. I’m not saying it’s definitely happened, since it’s unproven, but the machines have been found extremely [suspect](http://arstechnica.com/business/2011/09/diebold-voting-machines-vulnerable-to-remote-tampering-via-man-in-the-middle-attack/): > [@](#): > > Researchers at the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory have demonstrated an electronic “man in the middle” attack that allows remote tampering with the Diebold AccuVote voting system. Argonne’s Vulnerability Assessment Team has previously exposed the same sort of vulnerability in Sequoia AVC machines in 2009, and believe the attack could be used against a wide range of voting machines… the electronic man-in-the-middle attack demonstrated by Argonne’s VAT team requires only basic electronics skills, and about $10.50 worth of hardware. “Anybody with an electronics workbench could put this together.” I personally find the continued use of unsecured voting machines to be much _more_ worrying than the current alleged voter fraud, because I can more easily see them as a path to an election result that differs from the true will of the electorate. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/2 "2012-07-15T15:25:44Z")
It’s hard to agree with your thesis without knowing what the alternative is and why it’s better? IIRC, there was a big push for a “paper ballot” as an augmentation to the voting machine, but I’m not really up on where that went. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/3 "2012-07-15T15:58:11Z")
I absolutely think that voting machine fraud is the more serious problem. Until there is a reliable means to ‘double check’ their counts and that is performed on a routine basis, I think that efforts to address the potential for machine tampering should be the priority. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/4 "2012-07-15T16:24:47Z")
Since voter fraud is a virtually non-existent problem, and **Bricker** and his ilk would never have even heard of it if not for the right wing propaganda machine, it doesn’t seem possible to me that it could cause a lack of voter confidence. Further, the solution to voting machine fraud (actually vote counting fraud in general, and other voter access issues) resolves the improbable potential problem of voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/5 "2012-07-15T16:58:27Z")
If voter fraud is really such an issue, I would be much more supportive of working out a national solution instead of State by State piecemeal solutions that scream partisan. IMHO, the voting machine fraud is a much greater issue. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/6 "2012-07-15T17:04:45Z")
Obviously, voting machine tampering is a much bigger concern than personal vote fraud, by orders of magnitude (namely, the orders of magnitude by which the former can outdo the latter in affecting the results for the same amount of effort). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/7 "2012-07-15T17:11:04Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Obviously, voting machine tampering is a much bigger concern than personal vote fraud, by orders of magnitude (namely, the orders of magnitude by which the former can outdo the latter in affecting the results for the same amount of effort). What’s the solution and why is it better? Not saying I don’t think there is one, I just haven’t seen one put forward. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/8 "2012-07-15T17:14:33Z")
The solution is a two part paper ballot, and a proper validation process. By incorporating technology, the process of validation can be done more easily and completely. The media and politicians will just have to wait a little longer for the results. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud-vs-voting-machine-tampering-which-is-a-bigger-concern/628302/9 "2012-07-15T17:36:27Z")
I don’t think voting machine fraud is much of a problem so much as voting machines seem to cause problems for poll workers, who are often not very adept technically. But I’m in favor of anything that reduces vote fraud, even if it isn’t a huge problem. In any case, we don’t really know how much of a problem it is, since we don’t really try to find out. The media actually seems to expend more effort tracking down illegal votes than the authorities. And the media never seems to have any trouble finding them.