# Voter fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615 "2015-04-14T04:00:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/81 "2015-04-16T23:52:06Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > All of that stuff is only marginally relevant to the issue of Voter ID laws, however, because no one is proposing that the process of _registering_ to vote be changed, and whatever paperwork you need to register, you could also use to get a photo ID, right? No, in my state they changed the voter registration requirements along with the identification rules. It was all part of Kansas Secure and Fair Elections Act of 2011, the main voter ID initiative in this state. When I moved to Kansas these many years ago, I went down to the DMV with my driver’s license from out-of-state and some proof of my current address (probably my lease agreement). With my new DL in hand, I then registered to vote; other people used other documents proving residence in Kansas (ranging from utility bills to tax statements), all of us swearing under penalty of perjury that we were U.S. citizens lawfully entitled to vote. That process will no longer work, because my out-of-state ID, by itself, is no longer sufficient to obtain a Kansas ID, and a utility bill + sworn statement sure ain’t enough to register. The documents used to register would _likely_ (but not guaranteed) be enough to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/82 "2015-04-17T00:33:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you ready to make the claim that every actual person does have at least one of those documents? That’s not my burden. I am responding to others’ claims. In debate, the person making the initial claim bears the burden of proof. Merely gainsaying an unsupported claim can be done without assuming the burden, or as my debate teacher used to repeat: “A gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/83 "2015-04-17T00:39:38Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Sure. I’ve linked to stories about some of them earlier in this thread. See post #55. I can’t find a single Kansas resident in that post’s collection of links. Would you be so kind as to redirect my attention to the specific example you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/84 "2015-04-17T00:45:53Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > All of that stuff is only marginally relevant to the issue of Voter ID laws, however, because no one is proposing that the process of _registering_ to vote be changed, and whatever paperwork you need to register, you could also use to get a photo ID, right? > > I’m assuming that the vast majority of people who don’t currently have photo IDs are also not yet registered to vote. > > Another point: Saint Cad said that he went to vote one time and someone else had already signed under his name. Also doorhinge mentioned that he knows two people that this happened to. This kind of fraud is something that I would have thought to be exceedingly rare. Could they have just signed in the wrong space, or did they specifically sign the name that was supposed to be in that space? > > It’s quite ballsy for someone to do - show up at a polling station and tell them that you’re Saint Cad, when one of Saint Cad’s neighbors is likely to be right behind you or in front of you in line and would know you’re not him. The penalty for this is serious, and for what? One more data point: it happened to my mother in 1998. She was not permitted to cast a vote because “she” had voted. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/85 "2015-04-17T02:08:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > He made no claim. > He asked a question. > Why don’t you just answer the question rather than trying to turn this thread into multiple pages of one-liner “uh huh”/“nuh uh” posts.? Because his questions aren’t directed at me, that’s why I’m not answering them. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/86 "2015-04-17T02:33:11Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > …Another point: **Saint Cad** said that he went to vote one time and someone else had already signed under his name. Also **doorhinge** mentioned that he knows two people that this happened to. This kind of fraud is something that I would have thought to be exceedingly rare. Could they have just signed in the wrong space, or did they specifically sign the name that was supposed to be in that space? > > It’s quite ballsy for someone to do - show up at a polling station and tell them that you’re **Saint Cad** , when one of **Saint Cad** ’s neighbors is likely to be right behind you or in front of you in line and would know you’re not him. The penalty for this is serious, and for what? (post shortened and bold added) Voter fraud? In Chicago? _Inconceivable!_ The poll worker asks your name. They then look for your name in the big book of people who really want to vote for Mayor Daley Democrats. You sign your name, and they give you a paper ballot. One fine voting day, I was told I had already voted. I asked if my brother had voted (He lived in Wisconsin and I knew he wasn’t coming to Chicago that day). When they told me that he had voted, I knew the Ward Heeler had brought in a couple of ringers to boost the Chicago Democrat’s landslide vote count. (FYI - landslides are never recounted. If you want to cheat, cheat big.) Since the Ward Heeler just happened to be at my polling place, he vouched for me, and I was given a ballot. Back then, it didn’t really take brass balls to commit voter fraud in Chicago. The Daley Democrat poll watchers wouldn’t testify. The Daley Democrat police wouldn’t make an arrest. If the wrong cop did arrest anyone, the Daley Democrat judges would dismiss the case. I’m sure it’s much more better now, under Mayor Rahm Emanuel. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/87 "2015-04-17T02:48:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t find a single Kansas resident in that post’s collection of links. > > Would you be so kind as to redirect my attention to the specific example you mean? You asked about “any actual person who doesn’t have any single one of those documents,” not “any actual Kansas resident.” I don’t figure Kansas residents are so very different from people in other states, so I merely referred you to examples of actual people. If you want actual Kansans, try [Arthur Spry and Charles Hamner](http://cjonline.com/news/2013-11-05/challenge-kansas-voter-id-law-likely-headed-federal-court), or [Beth Hiller](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/11/3469626/97-year-old-woman-denied-the-right-to-vote-because-of-voter-id/), or [Evelyn Howard](http://cjonline.com/news/2014-08-27/elections-board-92-year-old-woman-family-bible-no-birth-certificate-can-vote), or [the residents of some Kansas nursing homes](http://www.derbyinformer.com/news/article_bffa3c92-be46-526c-9159-ce927593d80f.html), which are the first couple of links I found when searching for published citations for you. Howard’s case gets back to what I was saying earlier about variability of cases. She was able to convince the Kansas election officials that she should be allowed to vote because she had her family Bible and somebody in the family had been able to track down census records. (Whether or not the fact she was attempting to register as a Republican had any impact was the subject of speculation in local media.) Had she NOT possessed that Bible, the result might have been quite different and a whole lot more difficult for her. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/88 "2015-04-17T03:25:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One more data point: it happened to my mother in 1998. She was not permitted to cast a vote because “she” had voted. I’ve been an election poll worker, and I’ve seen how the poll workers operate through several elections and with multiple types of poll books. I would bet money that most of the incidents of “they say I’ve already voted” don’t really mean somebody voted in your name; they mean that the person on the line above or below, or the person with a sort of similar name, voted, and the poll worker didn’t catch it. (Example: when the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division investigated [alleged dead voters in 2010](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-case-of-zombie-voters-in-south-carolina/2013/07/24/86de3c64-f403-11e2-aa2e-4088616498b4_blog.html), they found most of them were indeed basic clerical errors by the election staff.) Just to be clear: I have always behaved very scrupulously as an election worker, and have never knowingly participated in any funny business. That said, if I wanted to commit vote fraud, election administration is the way to do it. Somebody casting a ballot who isn’t entitled would be retail level; election staff can do it wholesale. The staff of even a single precinct could cast dozens or hundreds of bogus votes; the folks who program the voting machines or count the votes could manipulate the outcome by thousands or more. Yet there’s almost no discussion of that kind of fraud. For example, several mathematicians have found “statistical anomalies” that suggest the possibility of widespread electoral manipulation in the 2012 Republican primary; a Kansas professor [has filed a lawsuit](http://cjonline.com/news/2015-04-01/wichita-state-mathematician-sues-kris-kobach-sedgwick-county-elections-commisioner) asking for access to machine tapes to audit results. If the possibility proves out (a big IF, I admit), then hundreds of thousands of votes across the country may have been nullified. Have you seen any huge clamor about verifying the votes are been counted accurately? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/89 "2015-04-17T07:45:19Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > You asked about “any actual person who doesn’t have any single one of those documents,” not “any actual Kansas resident.” I don’t figure Kansas residents are so very different from people in other states, so I merely referred you to examples of actual people. Yes, that’s true. But that question was posed following the exchange of multiple posts in which I sought to narrow down the broad, inchoate claim you made about the expenditure of thousands of dollars to a specific state (or states, as subsequent questioning developed: a birth state and a state of residence). So it’s true that in that post, I failed to explicitly repeat the earlier preconditions. That did not mean that the earlier discussion evaporated. But if talking with you requires that each and every post restates each and every conversational predicate, I can try to make that happen. I’ll look at your current cases. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/90 "2015-04-17T08:01:42Z")
Arthur Spry and Charles Hammer did not allege that they were never issued birth certificates. They alleged that they could not find their birth certificates, and that requiring them to apply for duplicates was unduly burdensome. So, AGAIN: What specific person, in what specific state or states, is in an actual position of needing to spend thousands of dollars in order to obtain acceptable voting credentials? So far, every time I investigate details, the claim collapses. And Spry and Hammer dropped their suit after the defense requested information to obtain replacement birth certificates. So I’m not going to go through each and every name on a list, especially when the very first one turns out to be false. Why don’t you pick the name on your list that undeniably proves your claim, and give me that name? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/91 "2015-04-17T08:08:51Z")
Just because I’m bored: > [@](#): > > Hiller was tripped up by one of the provisions in Kansas’ strict new voting law, which requires identification. It was championed by Secretary of State Kris Kobach, who dubbed it the “Secure and Fair Elections Law.” > The seniors were wrongly turned away at the polling place because the worker said the copies of the IDs didn’t fit in a card scanner. Hiller’s original ID was with her granddaughter, who was not nearby. So your next example has ID! Just being held by her granddaughter, who was not nearby. The story does not disclose if the granddaughter was demanding thousands of dollars to release the ID unharmed. Is that what you meant? How utterly deceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/92 "2015-04-17T12:21:05Z")
The story about Evelyn Howard states she WAS able to vote, even without a birth certificate, because she provided other evidence of her birth. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/93 "2015-04-17T12:57:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The story about Evelyn Howard states she WAS able to vote, even without a birth certificate, because she provided other **evidence of her birth**. (bolding mine, y’all can’t have it) Well I should expect herstanding therewould be considered _prima facie_ evidence of her having been born at some prior point :). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/94 "2015-04-17T13:05:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (bolding mine, y’all can’t have it) > > Well I should expect herstanding therewould be considered _prima facie_ evidence of her having been born at some prior point :). That evidence would not rule out sudden appearance on this planet at the age of 55, righting wrongs, rescuing kittens, and performing other planet-saving type works. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/95 "2015-04-17T13:33:06Z")
And we remain at square zero: is there any actual person who lacks the requisite documentation such that obtaining it would cost thousands of dollars? If so, where are they, and in what state do they wish to cast a vote, and in what state were they born? Isn’t there even one such specific, identifiable person, in the whole country? We’ve had Voter ID laws upheld by the Supreme Court since 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/96 "2015-04-17T14:55:17Z")
Per RI Voter Law (YSMV): [http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/acceptableID/](http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/acceptableID/) > [@](#): > > Poll workers will accept the following valid and current Photo IDs: > RI driver’s license > U.S. passport > ID card issued by an educational institution in the United States > U.S. military identification card > ID card issued by the U.S. government or State of Rhode Island like a RIPTA bus pass > Government issued medical card > RI Voter ID I find it hard to believe that there are that many people who don’t have at least one of these forms of ID. I don’t buy it costs thousands to get ONE of these IDs. A quick glance at the list, I have three in my possession right now - Driver’s Licence, Passport, School ID. Seriously, are other states that draconian to get an ID? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/97 "2015-04-17T14:58:36Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I would bet money that most of the incidents of “they say I’ve already voted” don’t really mean somebody voted in your name; they mean that the person on the line above or below, or the person with a sort of similar name, voted, and the poll worker didn’t catch it. In my case, the poll worker checked and the person did sign “Saint Cad” and as my real name is unique, there was no chance of it being an oopsies. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/98 "2015-04-17T15:08:20Z")
Sorry for second post, but RI Secretary of State’s office will also come to organizations and events if evented to get voter ID cards out. [http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/schedule/](http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/schedule/) > [@](#): > > Registered voters who don’t have an acceptable current and valid Photo ID can get a free Voter ID at our office in Providence during normal business hours. We will also come to your community. To invite us to provide free Voter IDs at your organization or event, contact us at… And there are numerous forms you could offer to get an Voter ID card, some pretty damn easy to get: [http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/card/](http://sos.ri.gov/elections/voterid/card/) > [@](#): > > You will not need a Voter ID card if you already have a valid and current Photo ID. If you need a Voter ID, we will provide you with a free one. You must provide one of these proofs of identity: > > Employee ID card; > ID card provided by a commercial establishment; > Credit or debit card; > Military ID card; > Student ID card; > Health club ID card; > Insurance plan ID card; > Public housing ID card; > > If you don’t have one of those proofs of identity, you must bring one of the following documents. It must include your name and be dated since November 6, 2012, unless the document is intended to be of a permanent nature such as a pardon or discharge: > > Utility bill; > Bank statement; > Government paycheck; > Document issued by a government agency; > Official elections document issued by a government agency, dated for the election in which the registered voter is providing it as proof of identity; > Voter notification issued by a governmental agency; > Public housing ID card issued by a governmental agency; > Lease or rental statement or agreement issued by a governmental agency; > Student ID card issued by a governmental institution/agency or non-governmental institution/agency; > Tuition statement or bill issued by a governmental agency; > Insurance plan card or drug discount card issued by a government agency; > Discharge certificates, pardons, or other official documents issued to the registered voter by a governmental agency in connection with the resolution of a criminal case, indictment, sentence or other matter; > Public transit authority senior citizen and disabled discount ID card issued by a governmental agency; > ID documents issued by governmental disability agencies; > ID documents issued by homeless shelters and other temporary or transitional facilities; > Drug prescription issued by a government doctor or other governmental health care provider; > Property tax statement issued by a governmental agency; > Vehicle registration issued by a governmental agency; or > Vehicle certificate of ownership issued by a governmental agency Are other states so draconian in their services that it would cost thousands to get an ID card? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/99 "2015-04-17T15:14:53Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > I find it hard to believe that there are that many people who don’t have at least one of these forms of ID. > > I don’t buy it costs thousands to get ONE of these IDs. > > A quick glance at the list, I have three in my possession right now - Driver’s Licence, Passport, School ID. The majority of people are going to be like you, they have a driver’s license and other ID as needed. Take a person who’s poor (or old) and doesn’t drive. Does that person have a Passport? Nope. College ID card? Nope. Military card? Nope. Bus Pass? Maybe. Government Medical Card? Maybe. That leaves Voter ID. Going out to get an ID card for the express purpose of voting, from the one place in the state that offers them. You still need to bring some governmental documentation there, documents you might not have handy, and might be difficult or confusing to obtain. I’m not saying it costs thousands of dollars, but it’s a non-trivial effort. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/100 "2015-04-17T15:48:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s true. But that question was posed following the exchange of multiple posts in which I sought to narrow down the broad, inchoate claim you made about the expenditure of thousands of dollars to a specific state (or states, as subsequent questioning developed: a birth state and a state of residence). So it’s true that in that post, I failed to explicitly repeat the earlier preconditions. That did not mean that the earlier discussion evaporated. > > But if talking with you requires that each and every post restates each and every conversational predicate, I can try to make that happen. > > I’ll look at your current cases. I took your question to be: are there people in this country who lack a single one of the documents that would be required to vote in Kansas or any other state that has or adopts voter ID laws similar to those in Kansas? The answer to that question is an unequivocal yes. If you want to limit the conversation solely to Kansas, rather than the broader topic of voter ID restrictions, then we can do so. However, I was using the Kansas rules as an exemplar of how restrictive voter ID laws work, not as the sole topic of the thread. Sorry for the confusion. Returning to the topic, look at the article about Evelyn Howard. She does not possess a birth certificate, passport, certificate of naturalization, Bureau of Indian Affairs paperwork, consular report of birth abroad, etc., etc., etc. She fits the criteria of the question you asked: an actual person who lacks a single one of the documents. She was able to vote after she (or someone on her behalf) did some research, located a Bible and census records, and arranged an administrative hearing. How much did that cost? I’ve no idea; it might have been ten bucks, and it might have been ten grand. She still does not possess any of the documents on the list, and I also have no idea how much it might cost her to obtain any of them. One of the problems is that a chunk of the people who lack IDs are deeply ashamed of that fact and don’t want public attention brought. (Some do, and some have family members who do, so we have some very visible stories, but not everybody fits this profile.) I know somebody who would be an excellent example, except that there’s no published article I can cite. Having been born poor to a single mother in rural Mississippi is something he’s been trying to conceal his entire adult life–having it splashed across the newspaper won’t fly. He’d rather not vote than have the world know about his family. Look at the article about the Westview Manor residents–none are identified by name, nor are any precise details provided about what exactly they lack. (The fact that they’re a bunch of poor people living on Medicaid in an institution for those with mental health issues might possibly be relevant.) News articles indicate nine of 51 residents had acceptable IDs when the process started; the facility director spent six months very publicly working on it and finally talked (shamed?) the assistant secretary of state into making a personal visit to the facility to sort out the difficulties. How much was spent working on the issue, over those six months and beyond? How do you propose to quantify it? The articles about Beth Hiller in the local media (e.g., [Capital-Journal](http://cjonline.com/news/2014-08-08/topeka-seniors-shut-out-primary-id-law-poll-worker#gsc.tab=0)) don’t mention her even having a granddaughter; they say only that her daughter “would help her mother get an ID” before the next election. Where did you find the information that she does? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615.md?page=6)