# Voter fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615 "2015-04-14T04:00:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/101 "2015-04-17T16:35:03Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > One of the problems is that a chunk of the people who lack IDs are deeply ashamed of that fact and don’t want public attention brought. (Some do, and some have family members who do, so we have some very visible stories, but not everybody fits this profile.) I know somebody who would be an excellent example, except that there’s no published article I can cite. Having been born poor to a single mother in rural Mississippi is something he’s been trying to conceal his entire adult life–having it splashed across the newspaper won’t fly. He’d rather not vote than have the world know about his family. So Voter ID is bad because someone is too embarrassed to get ID? This example does not help out your side at all. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/102 "2015-04-17T17:05:38Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So Voter ID is bad because someone is too embarrassed to get ID? This example does not help out your side at all. No, they are too embarrassed to trumpet in the newspapers for public consumption what they regard as a shameful family secret. Bricker wants citations to real people; that means newspaper articles or other public sources. It has nothing to do with “too embarrassed to get ID”; it’s “too embarrassed to tell the media about why they lack certain documents or have trouble getting ID.” Here, let’s take the most embarrassing, shameful, degrading secret in **your** family. Publish it in the newspaper with your real name, and the real names of all relatives involved. Make sure your neighbors and co-workers, and the other kids in school with yours, gets to know the gory details. Provide us a link. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/103 "2015-04-17T17:06:22Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I took your question to be: are there people in this country who lack a single one of the documents that would be required to vote in Kansas or any other state that has or adopts voter ID laws similar to those in Kansas? The answer to that question is an unequivocal yes. Then name the person who can’t vote in his state. It doesn’t have to be Kansas. But don’t show me John Doe of Tennessee who can’t vote under Kansas’ rules; he doesn’t need to. But I’ll certainly accept a case of John Doe of Tennessee who cannot vote under Tennessee’s rules (without expending thousands of dollars, a parenthetical reminder I add because it’s necessary in discussions with you, evidently). > [@](#): > > If you want to limit the conversation solely to Kansas, rather than the broader topic of voter ID restrictions, then we can do so. However, I was using the Kansas rules as an exemplar of how restrictive voter ID laws work, not as the sole topic of the thread. Sorry for the confusion. > > Returning to the topic, look at the article about Evelyn Howard. She does not possess a birth certificate, passport, certificate of naturalization, Bureau of Indian Affairs paperwork, consular report of birth abroad, etc., etc., etc. She fits the criteria of the question you asked: an actual person who lacks a single one of the documents. > > She was able to vote after she (or someone on her behalf) did some research, located a Bible and census records, and arranged an administrative hearing. How much did that cost? I’ve no idea; it might have been ten bucks, and it might have been ten grand. She still does not possess any of the documents on the list, and I also have no idea how much it might cost her to obtain any of them. It didn’t cost anything. Her daughter had the Bible. [Cite.](http://khon2.com/2014/08/28/family-bible-saves-voting-day-for-92-year-old-kansas-woman/) > [@KHON TV](#): > > Her daughter, Marilyn Hopkins, said she [Evelyn Howard] was born in a midwife’s home in Minnesota in February 1922. > > “I knew we ought to find some way that I can vote because I’m still a United States citizen,” Howard said. > > Enter Howard’s family bible from the 1920s. > > “This was her mother’s bible which had in it the place when she was born and where she was born,” Hopkins explained. > > The Bible had her father’s nearly 100-year-old notes recording Howard’s birth and that of her siblings. Her mother noted on a page in the Bible when and where her children were born. Those simple notes were enough to allow Howard to be approved by the Kansas Election Board to keep voting. Not one dollar. Just a daughter, with family records. > [@KCUR](#): > > The articles about Beth Hiller in the local media (e.g., [Capital-Journal](http://cjonline.com/news/2014-08-08/topeka-seniors-shut-out-primary-id-law-poll-worker#gsc.tab=0)) don’t mention her even having a granddaughter; they say only that her daughter “would help her mother get an ID” before the next election. Where did you find the information that she does? From KCUR news radio. [Cite.](http://kcur.org/post/will-voting-problems-give-kansas-election-night-limbo) > [@](#): > > The seniors were wrongly turned away at the polling place because the worker said the copies of the IDs didn’t fit in a card scanner. Hiller’s original ID was with her granddaughter, who was not nearby. This continues to be the pattern. Grand claims are made about the people affected, and examination of the claims makes each melt away. Find me a single, verified, actual person in the United States of America, just one, who cannot vote except upon the expenditure of thousands of dollars. It can be any state you like for residency, and any state you like for birth. Just be specific. Who? ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/104 "2015-04-17T17:38:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The majority of people are going to be like you, they have a driver’s license and other ID as needed. > > Take a person who’s poor (or old) and doesn’t drive. Does that person have a Passport? Nope. College ID card? Nope. Military card? Nope. Bus Pass? Maybe. Government Medical Card? Maybe. > > That leaves Voter ID. Going out to get an ID card for the express purpose of voting, from the one place in the state that offers them. You still need to bring some governmental documentation there, documents you might not have handy, and might be difficult or confusing to obtain. > > I’m not saying it costs thousands of dollars, but it’s a non-trivial effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong, only showing that it isn’t as difficult or as expensive as **slash2k** is making it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/105 "2015-04-17T18:50:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It didn’t cost anything. Her daughter had the Bible. [Cite.](http://khon2.com/2014/08/28/family-bible-saves-voting-day-for-92-year-old-kansas-woman/) Not one dollar. Just a daughter, with family records. Your own citation says “The bible had recently sold at an estate sale. Thankfully the buyer contacted Hopkins and thought the family should have the Bible back.” It was gone, out of the family, and they were able to retrieve it. Did the family have to buy it back? Your citation doesn’t say. Did the census records just magically appear, or did somebody pay a researcher to retrieve them? Your citation doesn’t say. Did Howard or her mother consult an attorney when preparing for the hearing? Your citation doesn’t say. Where is your evidence that this didn’t cost anything, “not one dollar”? > [@Bricker](#): > > From KCUR news radio. [Cite.](http://kcur.org/post/will-voting-problems-give-kansas-election-night-limbo) Conceded. Local media coverage didn’t include that detail. > [@Bricker](#): > > This continues to be the pattern. Grand claims are made about the people affected, and examination of the claims makes each melt away. > > Find me a single, verified, actual person in the United States of America, just one, who cannot vote except upon the expenditure of thousands of dollars. It can be any state you like for residency, and any state you like for birth. Just be specific. > > Who? No, I’m talking about the people who WOULD BE affected by voter ID laws such as that passed in Kansas. I made my statement about thousands of dollars in response to doorhinge’s comment in #26 that “No legal voter would be disenfranchised” and his call for the expansion of voter ID laws to additional states. I’ve shown you ample evidence that there are people living in this country who do not have any of the documents that would be required under more restrictive voter ID laws. You’re asking me to assume that the laws are static, that no additional state will pass such laws, which isn’t the context in which I spoke. You are also asking me to speculate on exactly how much a legal process that hasn’t happened yet is going to cost. (I understand you are an attorney–can you say with absolute certainty the cost of a given legal proceeding before that proceeding begins? I’m not an attorney, and I sure can’t.) Look at [Wilola Lee](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/wilola-lee-plaintiff-in-the-aclu-voter-id-lawsuit-has-fought-for-years-to-prove-her-identity/) of Pennsylvania. At the time of that article, she’d already spent “hundreds of dollars” trying to get a Georgia birth certificate, and had been told she needed to go see a judge in Georgia. (Cost not given–would you care to argue that a court hearing 800 miles from home would not or could not cost thousands in legal fees, travel expenses, etc.?) ([Gloria Torres and Lenora Carey](http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/germantown-weekly-newsletter/42422-voter-id-clinic-helps-handful-of-philadelphians-expedite-id-card-retrieval-process-), also in Pennsylvania, were taken on by pro bono attorneys–had the Pennsylvania law been enforced, somebody was going to be shelling out some money, even if it was “only” the law firm. Gloria Cuttino needed a delayed birth certificate from South Carolina–the ACLU of South Carolina has estimated that that process takes about eight hours of legal work, plus a $150 filing fee. What’s the going rate for eight hours of legal work by an attorney of any skill whatsoever? Each of these women would have been prevented from voting by the laws on the books. Each was actually able to vote because the courts overturned Pennsylvania’s voter ID law and Gov. Corbett gave up appealing. I’m going to count the cost of the legal work by the ACLU and various pro bono law firms as expenditures to allow them to vote, and I’m further going to estimate that expenditure in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you disagree with that estimate? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/106 "2015-04-17T18:53:35Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > I’m not saying you’re wrong, only showing that it isn’t as difficult or as expensive as **slash2k** is making it out to be. What is the cost of obtaining a delayed birth certificate via judicial process in your state? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/107 "2015-04-17T19:06:26Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Your own citation says “The bible had recently sold at an estate sale. Thankfully the buyer contacted Hopkins and thought the family should have the Bible back.” It was gone, out of the family, and they were able to retrieve it. Did the family have to buy it back? Your citation doesn’t say. Did the census records just magically appear, or did somebody pay a researcher to retrieve them? Your citation doesn’t say. Did Howard or her mother consult an attorney when preparing for the hearing? Your citation doesn’t say. > > Where is your evidence that this didn’t cost anything, “not one dollar”? I withdraw the claim that it didn’t cost a dollar. Now, before I go hunting down the details – is THIS is the case you’re contending proves your claim about “thousands of dollars?” In other words, it costs you very little time to continue throwing names up and it costs me more time to research the details that disprove them. So is this the case that you’re saying proves your claim? > [@](#): > > I’ve shown you ample evidence that there are people living in this country who do not have any of the documents that would be required under more restrictive voter ID laws. But you haven’t shown me that any of those people live in any of those states. > [@](#): > > You’re asking me to assume that the laws are static, that no additional state will pass such laws, which isn’t the context in which I spoke. You are also asking me to speculate on exactly how much a legal process that hasn’t happened yet is going to cost. (I understand you are an attorney–can you say with absolute certainty the cost of a given legal proceeding before that proceeding begins? I’m not an attorney, and I sure can’t.) No. I’m showing that your claim is merely speculative – you’re saying that some future set of circumstances MIGHT cost thousands of dollars, and therefore we should repeal extant Voter ID laws, even though none of them actually create the consequence you are describing. > [@](#): > > Look at [Wilola Lee](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/wilola-lee-plaintiff-in-the-aclu-voter-id-lawsuit-has-fought-for-years-to-prove-her-identity/) of Pennsylvania. At the time of that article, she’d already spent “hundreds of dollars” trying to get a Georgia birth certificate, and had been told > she needed to go see a judge in Georgia. (Cost not given–would you care to argue that a court hearing 800 miles from home would not or could not cost thousands in legal fees, travel expenses, etc.?) ([Gloria Torres and Lenora Carey](http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/germantown-weekly-newsletter/42422-voter-id-clinic-helps-handful-of-philadelphians-expedite-id-card-retrieval-process-), also in Pennsylvania, were taken on by pro bono attorneys–had the Pennsylvania law been enforced, somebody was going to be shelling out some money, even if it was “only” the law firm. Gloria Cuttino needed a delayed birth certificate from South Carolina–the ACLU of South Carolina has estimated that that process takes about eight hours of legal work, plus a $150 filing fee. What’s the going rate for eight hours of legal work by an attorney of any skill whatsoever? > > Each of these women would have been prevented from voting by the laws on the books. Each was actually able to vote because the courts overturned Pennsylvania’s voter ID law and Gov. Corbett gave up appealing. I’m going to count the cost of the legal work by the ACLU and various pro bono law firms as expenditures to allow them to vote, and I’m further going to estimate that expenditure in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you disagree with that > estimate? Yes. You may as well count the cost against the state to distribute free IDs as a “cost.” The cost is whatever is born by the voter. Unless your new argument is, “These Voter ID laws are terrible; they cost the ACLU thousands of dollars!” Or if your argument is, “The Pennsylvania law is flawed and should be changed,” then I agree. But the PA law’s flaws cannot be imputed to other laws in other states. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/108 "2015-04-17T19:20:51Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > What is the cost of obtaining a delayed birth certificate via judicial process in your state? Not required in RI to get a voter ID, so zero. See post #98 to see all the possible documentation that will get you a voter ID card in RI. If in some other reason someone needs a delayed birth certificate, I do not know the cost - but to get a voter ID, it is not required in RI. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/109 "2015-04-17T19:35:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How utterly deceptive. Bricked, you know you can’t accuse others of lying in Great Debates. Warning and please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/110 "2015-04-17T19:55:13Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Look at [Wilola Lee](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/wilola-lee-plaintiff-in-the-aclu-voter-id-lawsuit-has-fought-for-years-to-prove-her-identity/) of Pennsylvania. At the time of that article, she’d already spent “hundreds of dollars” trying to get a Georgia birth certificate, and had been told > she needed to go see a judge in Georgia. (Cost not given–would you care to argue that a court hearing 800 miles from home would not or could not cost thousands in legal fees, travel expenses, etc.?) This is more bureaucracy than law. If her birth certificate does not exist, she can get one under O.C.G.A. § 31-10-11. Why her copy is uncertified, I don’t know but by law it should have been. Total cost $35. > [@slash2k](#): > > ([Gloria Torres and Lenora Carey](http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/germantown-weekly-newsletter/42422-voter-id-clinic-helps-handful-of-philadelphians-expedite-id-card-retrieval-process-), also in Pennsylvania, were taken on by pro bono attorneys–had the Pennsylvania law been enforced, somebody was going to be shelling out some money, even if it was “only” the law firm. Gloria Cuttino needed a delayed birth certificate from South Carolina–the ACLU of South Carolina has estimated that that process takes about eight hours of legal work, plus a $150 filing fee. What’s the going rate for eight hours of legal work by an attorney of any skill whatsoever? Assuming she can prove she was born Gloria Pabon, file for a legal name change to Gloria Torres. > [@](#): > > ``` > Name Change Petition Forms - Contact your county prothonotary's office to see if they have a pre-printed form, an example of a petition, or, if you need to write one yourself, a list of what needs to be included in the petition to the court. > > Fingerprint Card - Finger prints must be taken at the local police department which serves the city, borough, or township where you reside. You may go to the Pennsylvania State Police barracks for this purpose ONLY if your municipality is not served by a local police department. The usual fee is about $20. > > Birth Certificate - If you do not have your birth certificate you can get a copy from the local Department of Health where you were born or order online at www.uscerts.com. > > Social Security Card - Visit your Social Security Administration office to obtain a replacement. A fee maybe required. > > Newspaper Advertisement - You will be required to publish your name in 2 local newspapers, one should be, but is not required to be, a legal paper of record (the cost of publishing in a legal paper can be several hundred dollars). You can petition the court not to require you to publish your name in a newspaper if you feel it would put you in danger. > > Applicable Fees - The court will assess a filing fee (approximately $320) as well as a Judgment Search ($120 and up). However, if you are considered to be low-income, you may request to "Petition to Proceed In Forma Pauperis (IFP)" which asks the court to waive filing and other fees to include the requirement to advertise your name change in a newspaper. This must be done BEFORE you begin the actual steps of changing your name. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/111 "2015-04-20T07:18:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I withdraw the claim that it didn’t cost a dollar. > > Now, before I go hunting down the details – is THIS is the case you’re contending proves your claim about “thousands of dollars?” Since there are no details to be hunted down in public (the whole story rests on a couple of newspaper articles and whatever archival records are in the possession of the State Election Board), this case cannot be used to prove or disprove any claim about money. However, this case DOES prove that there are genuine American citizens who lack the “normal” forms of identification such as birth certificates, documents that voter ID laws assume are in the possession or within the grasp of every eligible voter. I use this case, and cases such as Alecia Pennington and Wilola Lee, to prove that there are a number of people out there who don’t have 'em. Proofs about how much any individual case will cost are few and far between. For example, the articles about Howard note that she was “at least” the third case considered; who were the others, and how much did they spend? The articles about various Kansas nursing homes don’t identify even the names of all the residents who lacked ID, much less how much was expended on their behalf to secure their right to vote. However, if there are ANY people who lack ID (and I have proven there are), there will be some who are required to use elaborate procedures to obtain it. The South Carolina ACLU, e.g., says that filing for a delayed birth certificate takes about eight hours of legal work. In my part of the world, that’s going to be billed somewhere in the range of $1800-2400 for an associate in civil practice, maybe a little less for a lawyer fresh out of school and a little more for a partner. In some parts of the U.S., it might be somewhat cheaper; in your part of the U.S., it’s likely to be rather higher. That’s an amount somebody is spending on the client’s behalf, even if it is treated as pro bono or paid by a community organization. > [@Bricker](#): > > But you haven’t shown me that any of those people live in any of those states. Why would I need to show that? The argument was about whether such laws when extended to new states would burden people in those new states. Anybody in any state who would have to spend thousands to prove their citizenship would be an example of that burden. > [@Bricker](#): > > No. I’m showing that your claim is merely speculative – you’re saying that some future set of circumstances MIGHT cost thousands of dollars, and therefore we should repeal extant Voter ID laws, even though none of them actually create the consequence you are describing. I’m saying that some future set of circumstances WILL cost thousands of dollars, and there is reason to believe that existing sets of circumstances have already or will in future costs thousands. The notion that a family Bible never owned by the claimant will miraculously appear for every claimant is what is speculative. > [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. You may as well count the cost against the state to distribute free IDs as a “cost.” The cost is whatever is born by the voter. > > Unless your new argument is, “These Voter ID laws are terrible; they cost the ACLU thousands of dollars!” I am counting as a cost that which is borne by the voter or those acting on the voter’s behalf. If the voter’s lawyer has to spend thousands of dollars, the fact that the lawyer discounts or waives the fee doesn’t mean the expenditure didn’t take place. > [@Bricker](#): > > Or if your argument is, “The Pennsylvania law is flawed and should be changed,” then I agree. But the PA law’s flaws cannot be imputed to other laws in other states. The argument to which I was responding was that laws like that in Pennsylvania and Kansas and Wisconsin should be extended to other states. If you agree these laws are flawed, then you are agreeing with the essence of my argument. Specifically, I was addressing a hypothetical Illinois law–you wish me to assume that such a law would not have any of the flaws of existing laws in the various states? Is that not speculative? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/112 "2015-04-20T07:30:55Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > This is more bureaucracy than law. If her birth certificate does not exist, she can get one under O.C.G.A. § 31-10-11. Why her copy is uncertified, I don’t know but by law it should have been. Total cost $35. But the articles state that the Georgia Office of Vital Statistics refuses to certify it and told her she needs to go see a judge. Even if they should by law, filing for a writ of mandamus to compel them to do so is not free. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Assuming she can prove she was born Gloria Pabon, file for a legal name change to Gloria Torres. If she could prove she was born Gloria Pabon, she wouldn’t need to change her name legally. Moreover, you correctly point out that a legal name change in Pennsylvania requires only a few documents, including a birth certificate. Have you researched what it takes to order a birth certificate from the Puerto Rico Dept of Health or [uscerts.com](http://uscerts.com)? (Hint: it takes an identification document, such as a scanned copy of a current driver’s license or passport. Now what is Gloria Torres lacking? Oh yes, current identification.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/113 "2015-05-08T14:00:52Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > But the articles state that the Georgia Office of Vital Statistics refuses to certify it and told her she needs to go see a judge. Even if they should by law, filing for a writ of mandamus to compel them to do so is not free. And of course the reporter asked Georgia why they refused to certify so we could get the full story. Oh wait, no they didn’t. > [@slash2k](#): > > If she could prove she was born Gloria Pabon, she wouldn’t need to change her name legally. > > Moreover, you correctly point out that a legal name change in Pennsylvania requires only a few documents, including a birth certificate. Have you researched what it takes to order a birth certificate from the Puerto Rico Dept of Health or [uscerts.com](http://uscerts.com)? (Hint: it takes an identification document, such as a scanned copy of a current driver’s license or passport. Now what is Gloria Torres lacking? Oh yes, current identification.) The article never stated she couldn’t prove her birthname (I may have missed it however). It seemed that because the change of her name was not recorded, the issue is that there is no link between her name now and her birthname. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/114 "2015-05-08T14:36:28Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Why would I need to show that? The argument was about whether such laws when extended to new states would burden people in those new states. Anybody in any state who would have to spend thousands to prove their citizenship would be an example of that burden. Because you oppose all Voter ID laws, not just Pennsylvania’s flawed attempt. You cannot claim that anyone in any state is subject to a law that was dropped by one state. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615/115 "2015-05-09T10:55:51Z")
The UK Electoral Commission published a report (pdf) on [Electoral fraud in the UK](http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/164609/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf). Some selected quotes: > [@](#): > > Perceptions of fraud can be as damaging as actual incidents of electoral > fraud. Voters must be able to have confidence in the system and in our review > we looked at what more could be done to ensure they can. > [@](#): > > Finally, we should move to a system where voters are required to produce > identification at polling stations. We gathered substantial evidence during our > review that the lack of a requirement for ID is both an actual and a perceived > weakness in the system. > [@](#): > > Electoral fraud is not widespread across the UK and reports of significant > fraud are focused in specific places in England, concentrated in a small > number of local authority areas. We do not believe it is likely that fraud has > been attempted in more than a handful of wards in any particular local > authority area. That second quote seems to be particularly relevant to the US. Just this year there was the case of [Lutfur Rahman](http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/23/tower-hamlets-mayor-lutfur-rahman-found-guilty-of-electoral). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-fraud/717615.md?page=5)