# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/281 "2012-05-30T11:57:58Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > **Bricker** , if you really want me to go “wow, you got me” because two Democratic states have Voter ID laws, that are similar to laws in Republican states, fine. You got me. Who cares? Democrats are not perfect, they put bad laws into place too. And in this case they did. And Voter ID laws are a bad idea no matter who brings them up. And they are predominantly brought up by Republicans, yes? These two blue states are an anomaly, yes? > : Ah but your contention is that voter ID laws are passed in order to disenfranchise Democrat-voting public. Was that the motivation behind the Rhode Island and Delaware laws? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/282 "2012-05-30T12:02:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah but your contention is that voter ID laws are passed in order to disenfranchise Democrat-voting public. Was that the motivation behind the Rhode Island and Delaware laws? The vast majority of voter ID laws are passed with the intent of suppressing Democratic-leaning groups. The fact that there are two exceptions to this does not invalidate that fact. Perhaps someone familiar with the workings of the legislatures in those states could enlighten us- maybe they were passed as a package with other bills in order to gain some Republican support for the package. Pointing to two counterexamples and shouting “Neener neener neener” doesn’t win the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/283 "2012-05-30T13:02:09Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If IDs are easy for any eligible voter to get, no matter what. Then they are not a barrier to voting. The PA ID program is in the right direction, but it does not satisfactory achieve that goal. As documented, there’s the Social Security card issue. For one thing at least. I’m with you, then. I would like to see every state, Pennsylvania included, craft laws that allow easy access to voter ID, without sacrificing the integrity of the system, of course. The mindless insistence on a Social Security card, or indeed on any one piece of documentation, is foolish. The idea is to create documentation that allows us to be reasonably sure that the person voting is the person that registered to vote, and that this person is eligible to vote. In cases like the one mentioned, where there is a Catch-22 (have to have the SS card to get the ID; have to have the ID to get the SS) the regulations should allow an affidavit in place of the SS card, clearly establishing that false statements are perjury, the penalty for perjury is thus-and-so, and that the subject says they no longer have (or never had) a SS card, but they were born in the United States. And the affidavit should be notariezed at no charge, and the state ID issued likewise. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/284 "2012-05-30T13:10:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The vast majority of voter ID laws are passed with the intent of suppressing Democratic-leaning groups. The fact that there are two exceptions to this does not invalidate that fact. Perhaps someone familiar with the workings of the legislatures in those states could enlighten us- maybe they were passed as a package with other bills in order to gain some Republican support for the package. Pointing to two counterexamples and shouting “Neener neener neener” doesn’t win the argument. So - in your opinion the only motivation possible to pass the Voter ID laws is to suppress Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/285 "2012-05-30T13:16:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK. Let me see here… > > You know that illegal aliens are demonstrating in favor of the DREAM act. How you know this we are left to surmise, but its not a crazy idea in itself. How many, of course, is a matter of imagination. Six, a dozen, a hundred, a thousand, we get no guidance on that. But you know they’re there, and that’s all you need. Because I’ve seen people interviewed on TV, in which they say they’re here illegally but their dream is to see their kids go to college. > [@](#): > > But anyway, with that fact we can deduce that they are probably motivated to take the risk of voting illegally, and perhaps impoverishing their families and losing any hope of naturalization. Because they are so fervently and insanely devoted to passing the DREAM act as soon as possible. > > That’s not a conspiracy, that’s a fever dream. Don’t be ridiculous. It’s much greater risk to place yourself in front of cameras, and give interviews on TV (granted, to a sympathetic Univision camera, but a camera nonetheless) than it is to vote. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/286 "2012-05-30T13:21:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So - in your opinion the only motivation possible to pass the Voter ID laws is to suppress Democrats? It is theoretically possible to support voter ID laws for other reasons but such persons compose an insignificant fraction of the proponents. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/287 "2012-05-30T13:27:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because I’ve seen people interviewed on TV, in which they say they’re here illegally but their dream is to see their kids go to college. > **[Illegal immigrants arrested at protest identified; 12 remain jailed (videos)](https://www.al.com/montgomery/2011/11/illegal_immigrants_arrested_at.html)** > > All publicly declared their undocumented status yesterday in defiance of HB 56, which is considered to be the harshest anti-immigrant bill in the country. [http://www.pe.com/local-news/breaking-news-headlines/20120126-san-bernardino-no-immigration-detainers-against-protesters.ece](http://www.pe.com/local-news/breaking-news-headlines/20120126-san-bernardino-no-immigration-detainers-against-protesters.ece) [http://www.dreamactivist.org/media-advisory-six-undocumented-youth-arrested-at-anti-arpaio-protest/](http://www.dreamactivist.org/media-advisory-six-undocumented-youth-arrested-at-anti-arpaio-protest/) > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. [http://www2.journalnow.com/news/2011/sep/06/5/young-immigrants-arrested-in-charlotte-at-sit-in-t-ar-1362924/](http://www2.journalnow.com/news/2011/sep/06/5/young-immigrants-arrested-in-charlotte-at-sit-in-t-ar-1362924/) [http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137476280/a-new-generation-of-dreamers-goes-public](http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137476280/a-new-generation-of-dreamers-goes-public) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/288 "2012-05-30T13:28:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It is theoretically possible to support voter ID laws for other reasons but such persons compose an insignificant fraction of the proponents. And you know this how? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/289 "2012-05-30T13:31:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you know this how? Because those impacted adversely are disproportionately Democratic voters. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/290 "2012-05-30T13:34:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Because those impacted adversely are disproportionately Democratic voters. Once again, why would Democrats in two of the very blue states pass laws that supposedly disproportionately impact adversely their own voters? What was their motivation, you think? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/291 "2012-05-30T13:36:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So - in your opinion the only motivation possible to pass the Voter ID laws is to suppress Democrats? So - in your opinion there is not a trace of that motivation whatsoever in these laws? :dubious: Just curious how and when you realized that this problem existed, and that these laws are an effective solution with only acceptable side effects. What convinced _you_? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/292 "2012-05-30T13:39:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So - in your opinion there is not a trace of that motivation whatsoever in these laws? :dubious: Seeing how Democrats in two of the true blue states passed those laws - do you think there is a trace of that motivation in there? That is, the Democrats there may have thought that they were preventing fraud, but there was a trace of “let’s suppress Democrat voters” as well? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/293 "2012-05-30T13:41:03Z")
So you’re not going to answer? Pity. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/294 "2012-05-30T13:41:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And David42, I owe you a beer sometime. Please do PM me if you’re ever coming to Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/295 "2012-05-30T13:44:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Because those impacted adversely are disproportionately Democratic voters. And the reason it could not possibly be a collateral effect is? Please say something better than Republicans are evil! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/296 "2012-05-30T13:50:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Sending their kids to school and getting drivers licenses both have a higher personal payoff than casting a single vote, plus the worst possible consequence of these two things is deportation. > > Standing around outside Home Depot isn’t illegal plus it’s the whole point of them being here. It is where I live. There are signs listing the city ordinance, and yet you see still the guys there every day. > [@](#): > > Taking the risk of standing outside Home Depot is equivalent to taking the risk of being here. There’s no point in being here if it’s not to get work, and the sole consequence is being deported back to where you already were. > > Regarding protesting, do we know for certain that they openly protest and state that they are illegal? Has anyone posted a cite for that? (It’s possible I missed it in this long thread). In any case, this also will at worst result in deportation. > > Voting illegally is a different ballgame. An illegal person personally gains little or nothing but can be charged with a crime. No one here has shown that this kind of illegal and irrational voting is actually occurring in any meaningful amount (if at all). They make the claim that the lack of evidence is evidence that it’s easy. (Is there a name for that logical fallacy?) > > People are claiming that the risk of large numbers of people committing such an irrational act is so high and that the number of people who would do it is so large that it’s worth disenfranchising some legitimate voters and making the act of voting much more difficult for even more. They need to prove this claim before we start putting roadblocks in the path of legitimate voters. They could be charged with a crime if we had a system to catch them-- that is, voter ID laws. As it is, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/297 "2012-05-30T13:53:54Z")
> [@David42](#): > > And the reason it could not possibly be a collateral effect is? > > Please say something better than Republicans are evil! As a matter of fact, Republicans are indeed evil. It is not a collateral effect, it is the primary effect and the desired effect. When you pass a law to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, and the main impact is to disenfranchise people who don’t vote the way you want them to, then your motivations are quite apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/298 "2012-05-30T14:01:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, just so we’re clear here, the people who demonstrate for the DREAM act are mostly genuine Americans, yes? With every right to voice such views, publicly or otherwise. Just so we’re clear, you understand. Oh, absolutely. I don’t bring up the DREAM Act for any reason other than to say I have seen illegal aliens take the greater risk of demonstrating for it. I don’t mean to suggest that support for it is limited to illegal immigrants, nor do I even mean to suggest that the support of illegal immigrants for a particular law is somehow illegitimate. I just mean to rebut your idea that illegal immigrants would not dare to put themselves “on the radar” by voting but showing that some put themselves on the radar by demonstrating. But that’s anecdotal, yes? OK. Let’s look at [this investigation by the US House Committee on House Oversight](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-105hrpt416/html/CRPT-105hrpt416.htm). This was an election result challenge arising from the election of Loretta Sanchez in the 46th Congressional District of California. Ms. Sanchez won by 979 votes. A challenge was raised to the result, because: > [@](#): > > Less than a month after the election, on December 4, 1997, > the California Secretary of State, Bill Jones, announced the > opening of an investigation of vote fraud during the 1996 > election in the Forty-sixth Congressional District of > California. Orange County District Attorney, Michael Capizzi, > also announced that his office was undertaking a similar > investigation. On January 14, 1997, the Orange County District > Attorney conducted a search, under warrant, of the offices of > Hermandad Mexicana Nacional, a Latino community service > organization, alleged to be at the center of an effort to > register and encourage non-citizens to vote in the 1996 > elections. At that time the Los Angeles District Office of the > Immigration and Naturalization Service assisted Secretary of > State Jones in identifying non-citizens who may have voted. One step taken was to compare the list of registered voters with the INS database of registered aliens: > [@](#): > > After a careful comparison between the Orange County voter > registration files and INS databases the Task Force was able to > clearly and convincingly document that 624 persons had > illegally registered and thus were not eligible to cast ballots > in the November 1996 election. In addition, the > Task Force discovered 196 instances where there is a > circumstantial indication that a voter registered > illegally. Further, the Orange County Registrar of > voters voided 124 improper absentee ballots. In > total, the Task Force found clear and convincing evidence that > 748 invalid votes were cast in this election. Of course, there was no way to know for whom those votes were cast. And there was no way to know how many more total aliens were registered and voting: > [@](#): > > The question of how many aliens are registered and voting > in the Forty-sixth Congressional District has not been resolved > by this Task Force investigation. The investigation of this > contest has confirmed that there is a significant number of > aliens who appear within the INS data bases and are on the > voter registration rolls of Orange County. This fact leads > logically to a serious question and a troubling hypothesis: if > there is a significant number of ``documented aliens’', aliens > in INS records, on the Orange County voter registration rolls, > how many illegal or undocumented aliens may be registered to > vote in Orange County? The Task Force can make no conclusion > based on the materials before it as to the number of illegal > aliens who may be on Orange County registration rolls. The Task > Force does not have available to it clear and convincing > evidence on the number of undocumented aliens who may be > registered voters in Orange County. > Only clear and convincing evidence can provide the basis to > overcome the presumption of the legitimacy of the electoral > process. Absent such evidence, the California certification of > the election results in the 46th Congressional District must be > confirmed by this House. However, the confirmation of this > election result by the House is not an unequivocal validation > of the voting process in Orange County. > total, **the Task Force found clear and convincing evidence that > 748 invalid votes were cast in this election.** Well? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/299 "2012-05-30T14:08:27Z")
> [@David42](#): > > After you clearly demonstrating **Bricker’s** point about clarifying issues with you as true, I can’t be sure I am clearly understanding you without you defining what all the key words here mean to you. Umm, come to think of it, you’d better define the pronouns as you use them too. > > I mean, you do not understand “compelling” or “Interest” or “significant” causing some concern about communication with you; but when you insisted on a new definition of “they” meaning a majority of some other inclusive group only, it really took the cake. I must apologize **Elucidator**. It was **DavidM** that has a problem understanding “compelling” and “interest” and not you. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/300 "2012-05-30T14:09:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > As a matter of fact, Republicans are indeed evil. It is not a collateral effect, it is the primary effect and the desired effect. When you pass a law to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, and the main impact is to disenfranchise people who don’t vote the way you want them to, then your motivations are quite apparent. Ample evidence has been supplied in this thread that the problem DOES exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=16)