# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/301 "2012-05-30T14:23:07Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Ample evidence has been supplied in this thread that the problem DOES exist. We differ on the significance of the problem. Republicans are perfectly happy to suppress 1000 legitimate votes in order to prevent 50 illegitimate ones, because and only because the legitimate suppressed votes would benefit Democrats. You need to present a case that the cure is not worse than the disease. Consider Florida- a 91 year old decorated World War II veteran was informed by the state that he was not a citizen and must request a hearing to prove his citizenship if he wants to vote. Hundreds of fully eligible citizens are being purged from the voting rolls. The Miami Herald claims that the purge list targets Democrats and Hispanics. If this does not outrage you, then I dare say you have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/302 "2012-05-30T14:32:30Z")
Let me see if I got this: some people got in front of a camera, and said they were illegal aliens protesting for the DREAM act. Naturally, you believe them, despite the daunting consequences. So, this is what, three? Five people? No matter, it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that illegal aliens are not scared off from illegal voting, because you saw this! So then it is but a simple leap to claim that illegal aliens are voting in huge numbers. Not that you have any such numbers, but they would be caught if we had the proper laws in place, and _then_ you could prove it! But you know that they are, of that much you are certain. Because these guys talked in front of the magic TV camera of truth. So, what happens to your proof if those guys were lying? What if they figured it was OK to lie as a “spokesman” for someone who couldn’t dare take that risk? Then what? Maybe it isn’t the DREAM act? Maybe its all part of that movement to take back the SW US and give it to Mexico, or start their own country with Zombie Cesar Chavez as President! Maybe that is why this phantom army of illegal immigrants are crowding into our polling places! Which you know they are, because those guys said so! Well, they said they were illegal aliens, same difference! You know, for guys who claim to represent solid reason and logic, you guys take more leaps of faith than a hyperactive kangaroo. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/303 "2012-05-30T14:37:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We differ on the significance of the problem. Republicans are perfectly happy to suppress 1000 legitimate votes in order to prevent 50 illegitimate ones, because and only because the legitimate suppressed votes would benefit Democrats. You need to present a case that the cure is not worse than the disease. > > Consider Florida- a 91 year old decorated World War II veteran was informed by the state that he was not a citizen and must request a hearing to prove his citizenship if he wants to vote. Hundreds of fully eligible citizens are being purged from the voting rolls. The Miami Herald claims that the purge list targets Democrats and Hispanics. If this does not outrage you, then I dare say you have a problem. And I think it’s on you to prove the 1000/50 ratio. I hate to inform you, but a vet is not necessarily a citizen. We allow foreigners to fight in our armed services. Outrage? Getting emotional over issues causes people to not think straight. I’m not in favor of disenfranchising legitimate voters. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/304 "2012-05-30T14:43:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let me see if I got this: some people got in front of a camera, and said they were illegal aliens protesting for the DREAM act. Naturally, you believe them, despite the daunting consequences. So, this is what, three? Five people? No matter, it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that illegal aliens are not scared off from illegal voting, because you saw this! > > So then it is but a simple leap to claim that illegal aliens are voting in huge numbers. Not that you have any such numbers, but they would be caught if we had the proper laws in place, and _then_ you could prove it! But you know that they are, of that much you are certain. Because these guys talked in front of the magic TV camera of truth. > > So, what happens to your proof if those guys were lying? What if they figured it was OK to lie as a “spokesman” for someone who couldn’t dare take that risk? Then what? > > Maybe it isn’t the DREAM act? Maybe its all part of that movement to take back the SW US and give it to Mexico, or start their own country with Zombie Cesar Chavez as President! Maybe that is why this phantom army of illegal immigrants are crowding into our polling places! Which you know they are, because those guys said so! Well, they said they were illegal aliens, same difference! > > You know, for guys who claim to represent solid reason and logic, you guys take more leaps of faith than a hyperactive kangaroo. And Bricker’s citation to the 1997 Orange County case? I don’t see you addressing that. Was it all fake evil republican b.s.? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/305 "2012-05-30T14:47:45Z")
> [@David42](#): > > And I think it’s on you to prove the 1000/50 ratio. > > I hate to inform you, but a vet is not necessarily a citizen. We allow foreigners to fight in our armed services. > > Outrage? Getting emotional over issues causes people to not think straight. I’m not in favor of disenfranchising legitimate voters. I disagree. You want the voter ID law, you conduct a study showing that X number of illegitimate votes will be suppressed and Y number of legitimate votes will be suppressed. Unless you can show that X is much larger than Y, then there is no basis for writing the law. The vet in question is a US citizen, else he would hardly be raising a stink about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/306 "2012-05-30T14:49:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree. You want the voter ID law, you conduct a study showing that X number of illegitimate votes will be suppressed and Y number of legitimate votes will be suppressed. Unless you can show that X is much larger than Y, then there is no basis for writing the law. Where did you find this rule? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/307 "2012-05-30T14:50:53Z")
> [@](#): > > …The vet in question is a US citizen, else he would hardly be raising a stink about it. Oh? Have you seen his long-form birth certificate? OK, so he fought at the Battle of the Bulge, won a medal. Big deal, maybe he just doesn’t like Germans! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/308 "2012-05-30T14:52:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Where did you find this rule? Some guy said it in front of a TV camera. Solid proof. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/309 "2012-05-30T14:59:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let me see if I got this: some people got in front of a camera, and said they were illegal aliens protesting for the DREAM act. Naturally, you believe them, despite the daunting consequences. So, this is what, three? Five people? No matter, it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that illegal aliens are not scared off from illegal voting, because you saw this! > > So then it is but a simple leap to claim that illegal aliens are voting in huge numbers. Not that you have any such numbers, but they would be caught if we had the proper laws in place, and _then_ you could prove it! But you know that they are, of that much you are certain. Because these guys talked in front of the magic TV camera of truth. > > So, what happens to your proof if those guys were lying? What if they figured it was OK to lie as a “spokesman” for someone who couldn’t dare take that risk? Then what? > > Maybe it isn’t the DREAM act? Maybe its all part of that movement to take back the SW US and give it to Mexico, or start their own country with Zombie Cesar Chavez as President! Maybe that is why this phantom army of illegal immigrants are crowding into our polling places! Which you know they are, because those guys said so! Well, they said they were illegal aliens, same difference! > > You know, for guys who claim to represent solid reason and logic, you guys take more leaps of faith than a hyperactive kangaroo. And the report I [linked to?](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-105hrpt416/html/CRPT-105hrpt416.htm) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/310 "2012-05-30T15:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > We all want open, honest and fair elections and registration processes. What should not happen, as a result of this decision, is the further disenfranchisement of voters by even more restrictive registration requirements. This would only be the beginning of the recurrence of poll watchers, literacy tests, and poll taxes–other relics of a bygone era that died with the adoption of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. These, and other further and unwarranted restrictions upon the voting rights of all hinder the progress and freedom of not just minorities, but of all Americans. I like this part. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/311 "2012-05-30T15:04:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree. You want the voter ID law, you conduct a study showing that X number of illegitimate votes will be suppressed and Y number of legitimate votes will be suppressed. Unless you can show that X is much larger than Y, then there is no basis for writing the law. Cite that as the controlling principle of law in lawmaking. I stand by an assertion that it merely needs to address a compelling interest and be narrowly tailored as the least restrictive means. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/312 "2012-05-30T15:16:43Z")
\*You \*want to make a change, \*you \*have the burden of proof, both factual and moral, 'kay? Unless you’re trying to assert this remarkable concept of " the controlling principle of law in lawmaking" as real, and something more than “whatever my side can get away with to their advantage”, that is. Is that it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/313 "2012-05-30T15:21:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I like this part. Except that the first line, “We all want open, honest and fair elections and registration processes”, is patently and sadly untrue. The evidence is that we don’t \*all \*want that, even if we should. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/314 "2012-05-30T15:21:56Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Cite that as the controlling principle of law in lawmaking. > > I stand by an assertion that it merely needs to address a compelling interest and be narrowly tailored as the least restrictive means. If you want to change the status quo, the onus is on you to prove the benefits exceed the drawbacks. I don’t see the compelling interest nor do I see care taken to not disenfranchise legitimate citizens. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/315 "2012-05-30T15:29:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you want to change the status quo, the onus is on you to prove the benefits exceed the drawbacks. I don’t see the compelling interest nor do I see care taken to not disenfranchise legitimate citizens. Maybe, if the point is to convince you. If the point is whether this can be passed as a constitutional law, well, you’re wrong. So far the evidence in this thread adduced is hundreds of illegal votes, and a dozen disenfranchised. I say the burden is on you to show the “real” evidence, since you continue to dispute the evidence already shown. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/316 "2012-05-30T15:33:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I like this part. Thank you for sharing the part you liked. I should have phrased my question more clearly. What I meant to ask you was, “In light of the evidence in that report of 748 invalid votes being cast in that election, do you now concede that at least 748 invalid votes were cast in that election?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/317 "2012-05-30T15:34:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you want to change the status quo, the onus is on you to prove the benefits exceed the drawbacks. I don’t see the compelling interest nor do I see care taken to not disenfranchise legitimate citizens. Well, the status quo is that many states have passed voter ID laws. I don’t want to change that. So I guess I’m good. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/318 "2012-05-30T15:38:48Z")
And they could fix it, if they chose. That’s what gives away the game, more than anything else. They could fix it. How about an outreach program, to identify problem voters and provide them with reliable ID? See anything like that? How about a voter registration program, like the League of Women Voters does! That would be pretty damning, wouldn’t it? If they follow up on laws to make it more difficult for unsavory voters with laws making it more difficult to register voters, that would sure give it away, wouldn’t it? Good thing they didn’t…oh, wait, they did. > [@](#): > > …Florida, which is expected to be a vital swing state once again in this year’s presidential election, is enrolling fewer new voters than it did four years ago as prominent civic organizations have suspended registration drives because of what they describe as onerous restrictions imposed last year by Republican state officials… > **[Florida’s New Election Law Blunts Voter Drives (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/restrictions-on-voter-registration-in-florida-have-groups-opting-out.html)** > > New restrictions have led groups like Rock the Vote and the League of Women Voters to curb their efforts. But that isn’t about partisan political advantage, nosir! That’s about the protecting the pristine purity of our voter rolls from ACORN! OK, the League of Women Voters! Same thing! ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/319 "2012-05-30T15:51:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And they could fix it, if they chose. That’s what gives away the game, more than anything else. They could fix it. How about an outreach program, to identify problem voters and provide them with reliable ID? See anything like that? How about a voter registration program, like the League of Women Voters does! > > That would be pretty damning, wouldn’t it? If they follow up on laws to make it more difficult for unsavory voters with laws making it more difficult to register voters, that would sure give it away, wouldn’t it? Good thing they didn’t…oh, wait, they did. > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/restrictions-on-voter-registration-in-florida-have-groups-opting-out.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/restrictions-on-voter-registration-in-florida-have-groups-opting-out.html) > > But that isn’t about partisan political advantage, nosir! That’s about the protecting the pristine purity of our voter rolls from ACORN! OK, the League of Women Voters! Same thing! oooh, the lack of an outreach program is proof of a desire to violate rights! Lessee here…I can prove a massive conspiracy to disenfranchise criminal defendants of their right to represent themselves pro se because there is no government outreach program to encourage and assist them to/in exercise(ing) their right to do so. there is no government outreach prgram to assist and encourage people to avoid 4th amendment violations, therefore it is proof the aims of our government are to disenfranchise people of those rights. there is no government outreach program to encourage and assist those who wish to exercise their right to free religion, speech, etc., thereby proving bad faith on the part of the government. And so on and on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/320 "2012-05-30T15:52:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thank you for sharing the part you liked. > > I should have phrased my question more clearly. What I meant to ask you was, “In light of the evidence in that report of 748 invalid votes being cast in that election, do you now concede that at least 748 invalid votes were cast in that election?” > **[House Gives Sanchez Reason for Celebration](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-feb-05-mn-15697-story.html)** > > Politics: Task force drops inquiry, leaving her with incumbency, national celebrity and fund-raising prowess. > [@](#): > > …As the House Oversight Committee voted 8 to 1 Wednesday to dismiss its 13-month investigation into her 984-vote victory in 1996 over Republican Robert K. Dornan, Sanchez heads for her reelection campaign not only with the advantages of incumbency and a huge campaign treasure chest, but as a political celebrity, the star of her party’s drive to appeal to Latinos… Damning, to be sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=17)