# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/341 "2012-05-30T18:58:55Z")
And doesn’t exaggerating the significance of this one (count 'em, one!) instance do more damage to the confidence of the electorate than the actual thing itself? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/342 "2012-05-30T19:24:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And doesn’t exaggerating the significance of this one (count 'em, one!) instance do more damage to the confidence of the electorate than the actual thing itself? So now you are triumphant over one cite, but you still haven’t addressed the South Carolina Attorney General’s claim of potentially 900 fraudulent zombie votes. Besides, you need to make a showing that “improper” is not “fraudulent;” unless you’d like to argue that fraudulent is, well, proper. I’m not too persuaded by quibbles over semantics, and at first blush, the source’s use of improper could mean fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/343 "2012-05-30T19:31:59Z")
> [@David42](#): > > So now you are triumphant over one cite, but you still haven’t addressed the South Carolina Attorney General’s claim of potentially 900 fraudulent zombie votes. > > Besides, you need to make a showing that “improper” is not “fraudulent;” unless you’d like to argue that fraudulent is, well, proper. > > I’m not too persuaded by quibbles over semantics, and at first blush, the source’s use of improper could mean fraudulent. Improper and fraudulent are not synonyms. It is improper if I eat my salad with my dinner fork, but it is not fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/344 "2012-05-30T19:37:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Improper and fraudulent are not synonyms. It is improper if I eat my salad with my dinner fork, but it is not fraudulent. Well if the salad contains arugula, we might have a case for fraud. But let’s not get into that whole mess! ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/345 "2012-05-30T19:38:50Z")
You also still ignore my questions about the bank analogy. Since the right to property is fundamental, and a person who loses his I.D. cannot use his bank, and ESPECIALLY since this type of disenfranchisement can result in more personal harm, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t agree that the law should forbid the use of I.D.'s in banks. Apply the same standards you use for voting and what is the conclusion? Banks demanding I.D. are an egregious violation of fundamental rights! ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/346 "2012-05-30T19:39:58Z")
Honestly, I don’t mind voter ID laws. However, I’ve noticed that whenever conservatives bring up the concept, they never seem to want to provide that necessary ID for _free_. That right there makes me suspicious of their intent. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/347 "2012-05-30T20:13:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Improper and fraudulent are not synonyms. It is improper if I eat my salad with my dinner fork, but it is not fraudulent. No, but fraudulent is inclusive of improper. They need not be exact synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/348 "2012-05-30T20:20:23Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Honestly, I don’t mind voter ID laws. However, I’ve noticed that whenever conservatives bring up the concept, they never seem to want to provide that necessary ID for _free_. That right there makes me suspicious of their intent. Which state’s laws don’t provide for free ID? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/349 "2012-05-30T20:28:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which state’s laws don’t provide for free ID? Ohio charges $8.50 for a state ID card. [Link](http://bmv.ohio.gov/fees_for_services.stm) Which is a bargain compared to Maryland, which charges $15. [Link](http://www.mva.maryland.gov/About-MVA/FEE/default.htm#DriverLicensing) I’m not going to check the other 48 states. Perhaps a better question is which states DON’T charge for an I.D. card. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/350 "2012-05-30T20:41:13Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Ohio charges $8.50 for a state ID card. [Link](http://bmv.ohio.gov/fees_for_services.stm) > > Which is a bargain compared to Maryland, which charges $15. [Link](http://www.mva.maryland.gov/About-MVA/FEE/default.htm#DriverLicensing) Ohio does not require photo ID. Maryland doesn’t have a Voter ID law. Every state that did enact requirements for photo ID provides them for free. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/351 "2012-05-30T20:46:49Z")
> [@David42](#): > > No, but fraudulent is inclusive of improper. They need not be exact synonyms. Doesn’t matter. Something can be improper without being fraudulent. That’s the point. Improper does not imply fraudulent at all. Improper ballots doesn’t mean that anyone committed fraud, or even that anyone knowingly did anything wrong. Could just be not filling it out correctly, or punching 2 holes instead of one. So the phrase “improper ballots” does not imply anything sinister having happened, and does not necessitate passing new laws. Unless you have something more that sheds light on what was meant by improper in this context, it can’t be used as definite evidence of voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/352 "2012-05-30T20:57:28Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Ohio charges $8.50 for a state ID card. [Link](http://bmv.ohio.gov/fees_for_services.stm) > > Which is a bargain compared to Maryland, which charges $15. [Link](http://www.mva.maryland.gov/About-MVA/FEE/default.htm#DriverLicensing) > > I’m not going to check the other 48 states. Perhaps a better question is which states DON’T charge for an I.D. card. Maybe you should have checked your sources a bit better. Ohio law (ORS 3509) provides for a free ID for voting for any person unable to pay. Maryland doesn’t require photo ID, and you can use a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document that shows your name and address. What else you got? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/353 "2012-05-30T20:58:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ohio does not require photo ID. Maryland doesn’t have a Voter ID law. Every state that did enact requirements for photo ID provides them for free. Incorrect as to Ohio, which passed HB 159 last year, requiring photo IDs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/354 "2012-05-30T21:02:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Heh. No, no, as you see from my previous post, my goal all along has been to point out the problems with public confidence. How about telling us in which post you showed them to _exist_? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/355 "2012-05-30T21:14:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Incorrect as to Ohio, which passed HB 159 last year, requiring photo IDs. I looked here: [http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx](http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx) Says that the photo ID legislation is pending in 2012. I think it passed in House and not Senate last year. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/356 "2012-05-30T21:46:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe you should have checked your sources a bit better. > > Ohio law (ORS 3509) provides for a free ID for voting for any person unable to pay. Bricker, one cannot check your accuracy when you fail to cite correctly. Ohio laws are included in the Ohio Revised Code (ORC) or Ohio Administrative Code (OAC). [Links](http://codes.ohio.gov/) What “ORS” is is anybody’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/357 "2012-05-30T23:07:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think it passed in House and not Senate last year. [That’s correct,](http://lsc.state.oh.us/coderev/hou129.nsf/House+Bill+Number/0159?OpenDocument) and it’s [not expected to go any farther.](http://www.cantonrep.com/archive/x1764486278/Ohio-House-leader-says-voter-photo-ID-bill-is-dead) Photo ID was originally included in another bill which did pass (HB 259), but it was [removed at the last minute](http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2011/06/ohio_senate_removes_controvers.html) (and nearly all of that legislation was [repealed](http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120515/NEWS/305150115/Kasich-s-signing-election-law-repeal-doesn-t-end-debate) two weeks ago anyways). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/358 "2012-05-30T23:18:33Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Bricker, one cannot check your accuracy when you fail to cite correctly. Ohio laws are included in the Ohio Revised Code (ORC) or Ohio Administrative Code (OAC). > > [Links](http://codes.ohio.gov/) > > What “ORS” is is anybody’s guess. I meant to type ORC, I did! Ok, I have now waded through the two versions of ORC 3501. And I wish to revise my earlier comments. Ohio will not have a voter ID law. There is no need to worry about any fee associated with IDs in Ohio, because Ohio is not going to require IDs at the polls. HB 194 was repealed by the Ohio legislature. That repeal is going to be signed by the governor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/359 "2012-05-30T23:19:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Incorrect as to Ohio, which passed HB 159 last year, requiring photo IDs. My mistake. You are correct. I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/360 "2012-05-30T23:25:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which state’s laws don’t provide for free ID? > [@zamboniracer](#): > > Ohio charges $8.50 for a state ID card. [Link](http://bmv.ohio.gov/fees_for_services.stm) > > Which is a bargain compared to Maryland, which charges $15. [Link](http://www.mva.maryland.gov/About-MVA/FEE/default.htm#DriverLicensing) > > I’m not going to check the other 48 states. Perhaps a better question is which states DON’T charge for an I.D. card. Here was my original response to,this post. My post contains errors, and I want to acknowledge those. I withdraw this post: > [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe you should have checked your sources a bit better. > > Ohio law (ORS 3509) provides for a free ID for voting for any person unable to pay. > > Maryland doesn’t require photo ID, and you can use a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document that shows your name and address. > > What else you got? I would like to substitute this post: Neither Ohio nor Maryland require photo IDs, nor do they charge for IDs that may be required to vote. So, again, what state’s laws require ID to vote but don’t provide free ID? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=19)