# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/501 "2012-06-04T15:41:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And pious protestations of liberal hypocrisy from someone who knowingly posts lies is of less consequence than a butterfly’s fart. **elucidator** , you need to back off here. You’re allowed to accuse Fox News of lying, but the tone of your posts is becoming too personal. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/502 "2012-06-04T15:56:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277) _Two_. Out of 11 million. Well, 12 million, counting the ‘inactive’ roll. And one of the two claims he doesn’t care enough about this country to vote, and that he has never registered. So _one_. I’m seeing a pressing need, even a state of emergency requiring, a purge of voter rolls. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/503 "2012-06-04T16:15:10Z")
And right now! At once! Before the next elections, lest illegal aliens and felons chart the future course of the Republic! _AAAAA-roooga! AAA-roooga!_ Emergency! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/504 "2012-06-04T16:20:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **elucidator** , you need to back off here. You’re allowed to accuse Fox News of lying, but the tone of your posts is becoming too personal. With all due awe, and no snark intended or implied, ATMB question posted. This unworthy one seeks guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/505 "2012-06-04T16:24:17Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > _Two_. Out of 11 million. Well, 12 million, counting the ‘inactive’ roll. > > And one of the two claims he doesn’t care enough about this country to vote, and that he has never registered. > > So _one_. > > I’m seeing a pressing need, even a state of emergency requiring, a purge of voter rolls. Well, the one, whose denial you accept uncritically, says: > [@](#): > > Cue, 53 and from Miami, told the Herald he’s a schizophrenic, doesn’t remember voting and said three others have his same name and birth date. “I’ve never voted a day in my life,” Cue said. “I’ve lived in this house for 14 years and I have never filled out any paperwork regarding voting.” In terms of credibility, I’m not sure he enhances his by pointing out that he’s a schizophrenic and doesn’t remember voting. But you go to say that two, or one, doesn’t justify any changes. How is it that you imagine more would be caught? You are advocating that we don’t put in place any stringent methods to identify voters, and as your argument, pointing out that we can’t reliably identify voters. Three other people have Cue’ name and birth date – gee, would sure be nice if we had Voter ID. That could clear up the mystery of whether he voted or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/506 "2012-06-04T16:27:58Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277) Well, it sounds like 1 of the 2 they found is questionable, and as the other hasn’t been reached for any kind of comment, it’s hard to know for sure that that person illegally cast a vote as well. However, now that they found 2 potential illegal voters, all is still not well in the universe. They were prepared to wipe 180,000 votes off the roles to catch these two. That’s NINE MILLION percent overkill. It also proves that we can catch people like this without forcing IDs. On a related note, does a driver’s license even show that you’re a non-citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/507 "2012-06-04T16:30:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Three other people have Cue’ name and birth date – gee, would sure be nice if we had Voter ID. That could clear up the mystery of whether he voted or not. How? As far as I know, poll attendants don’t check address. So if he can provide an ID, how does that distinguish him from the other three people? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/508 "2012-06-04T17:03:36Z")
All of those problems could be fixed, if there were a sincere will to do so. Anybody see any such effort on the part of those pressing this issue? Some outreach program, to ensure that persons who are legitimate voters are not inconvenienced, or worse, stymied? No, what you see is additional effort to make voter registration more difficult and potentially criminal. The League of Women Voters are a band of scofflaws and scoundrels than need to be firmly checked? Because they are in cahoots with the Democrat plan to ensure the voting privileges of illegal aliens and felons? Does anybody here seriously believe that? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/509 "2012-06-04T17:05:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > \But you go to say that two, or one, doesn’t justify any changes. How is it that you imagine more would be caught? > > You are advocating that we don’t put in place any stringent methods to identify voters, and as your argument, pointing out that we can’t reliably identify voters. Three other people have Cue’ name and birth date – gee, would sure be nice if we had Voter ID. That could clear up the mystery of whether he voted or not. OK, so it’s back to two. Out of 12 million. I’m just not seeing the necessity for a voter purge that originally targeted 180,000 people. Two abusers are literally ridiculous as rationalization for additional voter ID laws. On the other hand, one hundred eighty thousand people removed from voter rolls is a highly significant number, whether they all voted Democratic or Republican, and regardless of being composed predominantly of minorities or exclusively white bread. The equivalence is lacking here. And you misunderstand my advocacy and my argument. I have never said that every potential form of voter verification would be bad. I have never claimed that there would be zero potential positive benefit from some form of voter verification. My actual advocacy and argument is summarized by **’luc** : > [@elucidator](#): > > \ Its not wrong to insist on pristine voter rolls. its wrong to use that as an excuse to declare an emergency and enact new regulations that will favor one party over another. Indeed, I am amazed that you cannot see the point. The wrongness is in the crafting of laws that purport to address a problem (of questionable existence, but that’s a separate issue) but do so in a way that \*you yourself admit \*confers a partisan advantage. Enshrining partisan advantage into our laws cannot be to the advantage of our country. It is a glaring example of putting party before country. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/510 "2012-06-04T17:18:18Z")
And this just in, from our good friends at _ThinkProgress_ [http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/04/494417/in-texas-300000-eligible-voters-targeted-in-purge/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/04/494417/in-texas-300000-eligible-voters-targeted-in-purge/) (Leftish site warning, cootie prevention protocols advised for the rightarded…) **In Texas, 300,000 Eligible Voters Targeted in Purge** > [@](#): > > …The Houston Chronicle reports that, in a two year period, 300,000 eligible voters were warned that they may be removed from Texas voter rolls. Texas voter registration rates are already among the lowest in the nation, and one out of every 10 Texas voters’ registration is currently suspended… Attaboy, Texas! Don’t let Florida get ahead in the Crazy Race! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/511 "2012-06-04T17:39:22Z")
Fox News and Rasmussen polls are not to be trusted because they are pathologically misleading. Fox News in particular has a history of misleading when it comes to the voter ID laws. Look what their poll asked: > [@](#): > > There is a debate about state laws that require voters to show a valid form of state or federally-issued photo identification to prove U.S. citizenship before being allowed to vote. Supporters of these laws say they are necessary to stop ineligible people from voting illegally. Opponents say these laws are unnecessary and mostly discourage legal voters from voting. What do you think? > [@](#): > > Do you believe the supporters of voter identification laws are really trying to steal elections by decreasing legal votes from minorities? > [@](#): > > Do you believe the opponents of voter identification laws are really trying to steal elections by increasing illegal votes by non-citizens and other ineligible voters? At no point does it mention that voter ID laws have actually disenfranchised eligible voters. What it does is set it up as a controversy between Republicans and Democrats…er, I mean, “supporters” and “opponents”, then goes on to ask the respondents about the intent of the laws and those who support them. Now I’m sure that a majority of the respondents feel in their hearts that supporters of voter ID laws would never _intend_ to disenfranchise kindly old ladies and college students, but I don’t a flying fuck if their intentions are good. I want to know why my Aunt Dolores has to worry about whether her ballot will be accepted. There’s a reason Fox News and Rasmussen have bad reputations outside of the wingnutoverse, and it has nothing to do with the Liberal Media. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/512 "2012-06-04T17:47:58Z")
Oh, one more thing. I don’t see how it’s anything but suspicious that Republicans saw such big gains in 2010, followed by 33 states suddenly deciding to consider voter ID laws in 2011. Pure coincidence, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/513 "2012-06-04T17:49:53Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > How? As far as I know, poll attendants don’t check address. So if he can provide an ID, how does that distinguish him from the other three people? They do check addresses when you register. Otherwise how would they know you are voting in the right precinct? We wouldn’t have these problems if we had more checks during registration. It would be a lot easier to check on the front end than the back end. [http://www.ocfelections.com/requirementstoRegister.aspx](http://www.ocfelections.com/requirementstoRegister.aspx) The Florida Driver License or ID card sound pretty good, but registering without one sounds sloppy. I had to show my birth certificate and social security card when I renewed my driver license. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/514 "2012-06-04T18:32:35Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Oh, one more thing. I don’t see how it’s anything but suspicious that Republicans saw such big gains in 2010, followed by 33 states suddenly deciding to consider voter ID laws in 2011. Pure coincidence, I’m sure. Wouldn’t evidence of effect be seeing Republicans making gains AFTER passing ID laws? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/515 "2012-06-04T18:36:58Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/516 "2012-06-04T18:41:42Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Oh, one more thing. I don’t see how it’s anything but suspicious that Republicans saw such big gains in 2010, followed by 33 states suddenly deciding to consider voter ID laws in 2011. Pure coincidence, I’m sure. Hmm. Suppose it had been the reverse: lots of states pass ID laws, then Republicans get big gains. Wouldn’t you be here now saying that this is ALSO suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/517 "2012-06-04T18:43:15Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > How? As far as I know, poll attendants don’t check address. So if he can provide an ID, how does that distinguish him from the other three people? Have you ever voted? Of course poll attendants check addresses. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/518 "2012-06-04T18:45:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The League of Women Voters are a band of scofflaws and scoundrels than need to be firmly checked? Because they are in cahoots with the Democrat plan to ensure the voting privileges of illegal aliens and felons? > > Does anybody here seriously believe that? No. That’s why you’re the first to say it here. When you make up an argument and attribute it to your opponents, that’s called a “straw man.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/519 "2012-06-04T18:47:23Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > At no point does it mention that voter ID laws have actually disenfranchised eligible voters. Because they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/520 "2012-06-04T18:50:07Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > OK, so it’s back to two. Out of 12 million. I’m just not seeing the necessity for a voter purge that originally targeted 180,000 people. Two abusers are literally ridiculous as rationalization for additional voter ID laws. On the other hand, one hundred eighty thousand people removed from voter rolls is a highly significant number, whether they all voted Democratic or Republican, and regardless of being composed predominantly of minorities or exclusively white bread. The equivalence is lacking here. > > And you misunderstand my advocacy and my argument. I have never said that every potential form of voter verification would be bad. I have never claimed that there would be zero potential positive benefit from some form of voter verification. My actual advocacy and argument is summarized by **’luc** : And, in turn, I have not particularly defended the voter purge. I am defending the voter ID scheme. In my view, the purge is generally unnecssary, because voting with strong ID means that we can easily identify people that voted illegally and prosecute them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=27)