# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/561 "2012-06-05T16:39:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > MOIDILIZE: as to you post #546, I said: I’m not going down this road with you. Either get to your point or drop it, because I don’t find the back-and-forth to be the least bit interesting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/562 "2012-06-05T16:50:34Z")
And now comes the Congressional Black Caucus, calling for a Faith Leaders Summit on voter rights, cheekily titled Get Souls to the Polls. Got a good beat, easy to dance to… As reported by my good friends at Daily Kos… [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...on?detail=hide](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...on?detail=hide) (Yep, lefty as all get out, if they’re lying, prove it and good for you!) There’s a lot on their agenda, but one point is of particular interest. Note the following subheading: They oppose efforts to “Reduce or eliminate early voting periods (including the Sunday before elections, which counted for 32 percent of the African-American voter turnout in Florida in 2008)” Can anyone who favors this stuff explain to me exactly how this advances the cause of voter integrity, and the all important confidence of the electorate? Seems to me this actually decreases the confidence of one portion the electorate, in that it seeks to drastically reduce their access to voting. It would be fair to say, I think, that this insult to their citizenship might well impact their confidence in voter integrity, being as it is a naked attempt to limit the number of colored voters. How is the all important confidence of the electorate enhanced by such an effort? A ray of sunshine intrudes into the fever swamp. If this effort bears fruit, and massive numbers of colored voters register to vote, and then vote, it may have a powerful impact. True, the Democrats may lose the crucial illegal alien and felon demographic, but it may be more than made up for with increased voter turnout amongst other groups who tend to favor Democrats. Dare we hope it proves to be enough to flush out the scoundrels who started this crap festival? We dare to hope, sometimes, it is all we have. And sometimes, if the Goddess shall cease to avert Her eyes, it works. (Duplicate post in the Pit, where you can say…stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/563 "2012-06-05T16:51:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Well, too bad. The system of government in this country is representative democracy. If you can’t convince voters of the truth of your proposition, and the evil conservatives can convince them of the truth of theirs, then it is their policy that will be carried out… No shit? Gee, thanks for the AfterSchool Special! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/564 "2012-06-05T16:53:51Z")
Bricker, I’ve seen you qualify your proposal as being for a “strong” ID. Would it be infallible? Seems unlikely, given that people can already come up with fakes for any current ID. So, what would the pecentage of fraudulent votes be under your proposed system? What is the current percentage of fraudulent votes? What would be the difference, and why would it be worthwhile? What would be the acceptable cost/benefit ratio of fraudulent vote to disenfranchisement? If you cannot say what the difference in rates of fraudulent votes would be, how can your proposal increase the confidence of the electorate? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/565 "2012-06-05T17:00:51Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The health insurance industry is incredibly profitable. Can you tell me, on the average, what is the profit margin for the health insurance industry? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/566 "2012-06-05T17:22:15Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I’m not going down this road with you. Either get to your point or drop it, because I don’t find the back-and-forth to be the least bit interesting. My point right now is: do you agree that the Tennessee poll is legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/567 "2012-06-05T17:25:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And now comes the Congressional Black Caucus, calling for a Faith Leaders Summit on voter rights, cheekily titled Get Souls to the Polls. Got a good beat, easy to dance to… > > As reported by my good friends at Daily Kos… > > [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...on?detail=hide](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...on?detail=hide) > > (Yep, lefty as all get out, if they’re lying, prove it and good for you!) > > There’s a lot on their agenda, but one point is of particular interest. Note the following subheading: They oppose efforts to “Reduce or eliminate early voting periods (including the Sunday before elections, which counted for 32 percent of the African-American voter turnout in Florida in 2008)” > > Can anyone who favors this stuff explain to me exactly how this advances the cause of voter integrity, and the all important confidence of the electorate? Seems to me this actually decreases the confidence of one portion the electorate, in that it seeks to drastically reduce their access to voting. > > It would be fair to say, I think, that this insult to their citizenship might well impact their confidence in voter integrity, being as it is a naked attempt to limit the number of colored voters. How is the all important confidence of the electorate enhanced by such an effort? > > A ray of sunshine intrudes into the fever swamp. If this effort bears fruit, and massive numbers of colored voters register to vote, and then vote, it may have a powerful impact. True, the Democrats may lose the crucial illegal alien and felon demographic, but it may be more than made up for with increased voter turnout amongst other groups who tend to favor Democrats. > > Dare we hope it proves to be enough to flush out the scoundrels who started this crap festival? We dare to hope, sometimes, it is all we have. And sometimes, if the Goddess shall cease to avert Her eyes, it works. > > (Duplicate post in the Pit, where you can say…stuff.) I have no problem with early voting periods. In fact, given the issues that arise sometimes with people in line when polls close on Election Day, and frantic calls to judges to get orders to keep the polls open as a result, I think early voting is just dandy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/568 "2012-06-05T17:30:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Bricker, > > I’ve seen you qualify your proposal as being for a “strong” ID. Would it be infallible? Seems unlikely, given that people can already come up with fakes for any current ID. > > So, what would the pecentage of fraudulent votes be under your proposed system? What is the current percentage of fraudulent votes? What would be the difference, and why would it be worthwhile? What would be the acceptable cost/benefit ratio of fraudulent vote to disenfranchisement? > > If you cannot say what the difference in rates of fraudulent votes would be, how can your proposal increase the confidence of the electorate? I don’t agree that reasonable voter ID requirements constitute disenfranchisement. Of course, no system would be utterly infalliable. But since the former system had no method of ensuring that voters are who they say they are, and the current system does, it’s clear to me that there is an improvement. It’s not, in other words, a matter of saying we can now be sure we’ve eliminated X fraudulent votes. Rather, we can say we’ve now got a system in which almost any fraudulent votes can be detected and the casters caught. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/569 "2012-06-05T17:31:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No shit? Gee, thanks for the AfterSchool Special! You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/570 "2012-06-05T17:33:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, no system would be utterly infalliable. But since the former system had no method of ensuring that voters are who they say they are, and the current system does, it’s clear to me that there is an improvement. > > It’s not, in other words, a matter of saying we can now be sure we’ve eliminated X fraudulent votes. Rather, we can say we’ve now got a system in which almost any fraudulent votes can be detected and the casters caught. But you just said that the system is not infallible. So which is it? Can you ensure that they are who they say they are or can you not? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/571 "2012-06-05T17:41:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you tell me, on the average, what is the profit margin for the health insurance industry? UnitedHealth Group’s profits in 2011 represented a 5.0% return on revenue, and 18.2% return on equity. If you’d like to know more about this industry, there are plenty of fine websites you can reference. > [@Bricker](#): > > My point right now is: do you agree that the Tennessee poll is legitimate? Legitimate? Well, I don’t believe it set out to deceive. It was perhaps limited in the usefulness of the information it generated, but that’s a general problem with polls, because who the hell wants to spend their free time responding to a detailed poll? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/572 "2012-06-05T17:46:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This entire post boils down to, “Well, the voters are too stupid to know what’s best for the country!” because they’ve been led astray by evil conservatives. That may be the case in your saucepan, but not in mine. I never suggested that people are stupid. People are busy living their lives, dealing with all their personal accomplishments and tragedies, and most have limited time or energy to expend on deep analysis of the plethora of issues the 24 hour news cycle drags in front of their eyes. The fact that they are being manipulated by a carefully orchestrated and implemented campaign of misinformation and exaggerated crisis proves the power of propaganda, not the stupidity of those taken in by it. > [@Bricker](#): > > Well, too bad. The system of government in this country is representative democracy. If you can’t convince voters of the truth of your proposition, and the evil conservatives can convince them of the truth of theirs, then it is their policy that will be carried out. And to your cynical and partisan self this is reasonable, because “the truth” of both positions is equivalent, eh? So much for your admission that these laws confer a partisan advantage. > [@Bricker](#): > > You are welcome, of course, to continue to inveigh furiously against the evil and misleading tactics the conservatives are using to make their case. Perhaps you will convince enough voters to change things. > > Good luck with that. I’m not inveighing against the tactics, although I am indeed calling them out for what they are. I am inveighing against the effort to chisel a partisan advantage into the concrete of law, and against those like you who support party at the expense of country by defending those efforts. The fact that you and your cohorts have been successful deeply saddens me. Although I’m sure your final sentence lacks sincerity, I’ll be happy to receive luck from everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/573 "2012-06-05T17:54:29Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > UnitedHealth Group’s profits in 2011 represented a 5.0% return on revenue, and 18.2% return on equity. If you’d like to know more about this industry, there are plenty of fine websites you can reference. Those fine web sites tell me the average profit margin for health insurance industry is [4.54%](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/health-insurance_industry_stil.html). If you think this is “incredibly profitable”, you really don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/574 "2012-06-05T18:40:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Those fine web sites tell me the average profit margin for health insurance industry is [4.54%](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/health-insurance_industry_stil.html). If you think this is “incredibly profitable”, you really don’t know what you’re talking about. 4.54% of $300 billion in revenue…chump change! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/575 "2012-06-05T18:42:03Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > 4.54% of $300 billion in revenue…chump change! 4.54% is a small profit margin. Much less than other industries. Calling it “incredibly profitable” is disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/576 "2012-06-05T18:43:04Z")
Drop in the bucket! Walking around money! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/577 "2012-06-05T18:47:20Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > 4.54% of $300 billion in revenue…chump change! Is it your contention that larger companies should make less % profit than smaller companies? That a $300B company with 4.5% is “incredibly profitable” but a $10M company with 30% profits is not? I guess we should just cut to the chance and ask you to define “incredibly profitable”. On second thought, don’t bother. I can’t believe that in a thread about voter ID laws, we’re left debating how much profit Health Insurance companies should make… ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/578 "2012-06-05T18:51:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > On second thought, don’t bother. I can’t believe that in a thread about voter ID laws, we’re left debating how much profit Health Insurance companies should make… You started it. My point was merely that some polls regarding healthcare reform are better than others. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/579 "2012-06-05T18:52:34Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > You started it. Just for the record, I did not. Not the discussion about profits or the discussion about H/C in general. > [@](#): > > My point was merely that some polls regarding healthcare reform are better than others. I can agree to that! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/580 "2012-06-05T19:01:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just for the record, I did not. Not the discussion about profits or the discussion about H/C in general. No, you tried to dismiss my example of the complex reality of Americans’ feelings about healthcare reform by making some argument about how they’re being unrealistic and just want stuff for free. It’s all right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15133759&postcount=549). Now you’re trying to walk off scot-free from the partisan caricature you drew. But it has to be paid for. No free lunch! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=30)