# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/621 "2012-06-06T20:33:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is a good point, except for those pesky facts. Those illustrate that every time the issue is examined, vanishingly small numbers of cases are found. They turned up 2700 in Florida by comparing driver license records with voter records. We are just talking about non-citizens with driver licenses, without talking about felons or illegal aliens. If the Florida election is as close as 2000, then illegal voter will probably decide the election. [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html) I’m curious about the lack of historical knowledge displayed by the people who think illegal voting is an insignificant problem. Did you never hear of Tammany Hall or Boss Tweed or more recently of Mayor Daley? Maybe you should explain when the problem got cleaned up? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/622 "2012-06-06T20:43:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > They turned up 2700 in Florida by comparing driver license records with voter records. We are just talking about non-citizens with driver licenses, without talking about felons or illegal aliens. If the Florida election is as close as 2000, then illegal voter will probably decide the election. > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html) > > I’m curious about the lack of historical knowledge displayed by the people who think illegal voting is an insignificant problem. Did you never hear of Tammany Hall or Boss Tweed or more recently of Mayor Daley? Maybe you should explain when the problem got cleaned up? Link/claim mismatch. Read the article. Besides, it’s already been discussed here. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/623 "2012-06-07T01:46:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Link/claim mismatch. Read the article. Besides, it’s already been discussed here. It has been discussed before but nobody mentioned that only 500 of the 2700 were able to produce documentation that they were naturalized after they got their driver licenses, so there are still over 2,000 illegal voters on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/624 "2012-06-07T02:12:11Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It has been discussed before but nobody mentioned that only 500 of the 2700 were able to produce documentation that they were naturalized after they got their driver licenses, so there are still over 2,000 illegal voters on the list. Nobody said that because that’s a complete misrepresentation of the article. I cannot even find the number 500 in the article. Are you even reading it? It’s also very important to understand what a fraudulent vote is, because you responded to a point about fraudulent votes with a cite about non-citizens on voting rolls. How many fraudulent votes were identified? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/625 "2012-06-07T03:34:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Nobody said that because that’s a complete misrepresentation of the article. I cannot even find the number 500 in the article. Are you even reading it? > > It’s also very important to understand what a fraudulent vote is, because you responded to a point about fraudulent votes with a cite about non-citizens on voting rolls. How many fraudulent votes were identified? No it was in another article. I suggest you google it yourself. It will be less work than going through over 600 posts to find the previous reference. BTW the number was larger then 500, but I’m sure you can figure it All non-citizen voting is fraudulent. I don’t care about what semantics games you are playing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/626 "2012-06-07T04:25:15Z")
[You are more likely to be hit by lightning than find voter fraud in Florida.](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-voter-fraud-fact-check-20120605,0,4866979.story) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/627 "2012-06-07T06:12:56Z")
And this just in: [http://rooney.house.gov/index.php?option=com\_content&task=view&id=3404&Itemid=300032](http://rooney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3404&Itemid=300032) > [@](#): > > …Washington, D.C. – U.S. Rep. Tom Rooney (FL-16) today sent a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder demanding that the Department of Justice stop its efforts to block the state of Florida from verifying the eligibility of registered voters. > > “The Department of Justice under President Obama has become so politicized that it consistently puts aiding the President’s reelection campaign ahead of upholding justice and enforcing the rule of law,” Rooney said. “The Attorney General is now actively working to enable voter fraud and allow illegal immigrants to cast votes in the state of Florida – this is a new low, even for this Administration.”… Offered without comment, emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/628 "2012-06-07T06:26:31Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [You are more likely to be hit by lightning than find voter fraud in Florida.](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-voter-fraud-fact-check-20120605,0,4866979.story) Ion Sancho’s statement is literally true. You chances of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 700,000, but if you don’t look for voter fraud, then your chances of finding it are nil. He is admitting that he isn’t doing his job. I’m also rather curious about how these naturalized citizens got registered to vote without updating their Florida DL or FL ID. If you have the ID, then you are supposed to show them when you register. Of course the people that write these articles never ask logical questions like that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/629 "2012-06-07T06:57:01Z")
Don’t know perzackly, but is there some reason someone who is scheduled for their citizenship ceremony could not register to vote in the election that ensues _after_ said ceremony? A charming enthusiasm and eagerness to participate, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/630 "2012-06-07T10:11:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > No it was in another article. I suggest you google it yourself. It will be less work than going through over 600 posts to find the previous reference. BTW the number was larger then 500, but I’m sure you can figure it > > All non-citizen voting is fraudulent. I don’t care about what semantics games you are playing. So you provide a link, misrepresent what it says, make up things out of wholecloth, and then suggest I go find a cite to support your false claims? FAIL. This does not increase my confidence in any claims on this subject by the right. In fact, it increases my sense that this is a manufactured issue. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/631 "2012-06-07T13:56:27Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [You are more likely to be hit by lightning than find voter fraud in Florida.](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-voter-fraud-fact-check-20120605,0,4866979.story) From the article: > [@](#): > > According to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, 178 cases of alleged voter fraud have been referred to the department since 2000. FDLE’s spreadsheet showed 11 arrests, but that apparently didn’t include a 2009 bust of ACORN registration volunteers in Miami-Dade that yielded seven convictions and sentences ranging from probation to 72 days in jail. So if the FDLE’s numbers are 11 arrests, but that “apparently didn’t include” at least one other case, why does the author believe the numbers are accurate? What was the cause for the omission of the Miami-Date arrests? Does it apply to other arrests? And the big question: if there is no way to verify the identity of a voter, how WOULD non-citizens voting be identified and prosecuted? If there is no way, then how is it relevant to say there are no documented cases? The truth is that there’s no way for a documented case to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/632 "2012-06-07T14:13:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From the article: > > So if the FDLE’s numbers are 11 arrests, but that “apparently didn’t include” at least one other case, why does the author believe the numbers are accurate? What was the cause for the omission of the Miami-Date arrests? Does it apply to other arrests? > > And the big question: if there is no way to verify the identity of a voter, how WOULD non-citizens voting be identified and prosecuted? If there is no way, then how is it relevant to say there are no documented cases? The truth is that there’s no way for a documented case to exist. So 11 impossible people exist? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/633 "2012-06-07T18:36:39Z")
Watched this the other day and recommend it to those who wonder about this issue from the perspective of election officials in Florida: Ann McFall, supervisor of elections for Volusia County, Florida, talks with Rachel Maddow about why she’s resisting Governor Rick Scott’s call to purge voters from the voting rolls ahead of the 2012 election. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/47714897#47714897](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/47714897#47714897) At about the ten minute mark, Rachel asks her why this is happening and she replies “I hope that it’s not some kind of partisan posturing, but I’m afraid that’s what it’s turning out to be.” It should be noted that Ann McFall is a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/634 "2012-06-07T19:03:44Z")
Surprisingly, I’m always surprised by these debates. I’m amazed that people who claim to so value the constitutionally guaranteed right to vote, feel that taking the slightest, teensy-weeniest step to ensure that only those eligible to vote are doing so is some GREAT IMPOSITION! If the franchise is so important, what’s the big deal about voter ID laws? Especially when they take steps to accommodate the old and infirm? Voter ID laws protect the franchise and ensure that the vote the you cast is not invalidated by an invalid one. So, stop your whining, wouldya. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/635 "2012-06-07T19:06:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And you missed the point. If the installers tell you on their way out the door that your expensive new system may not go off when someone breaks in, you’re a fool if you feel more confident. > > (Besides, how can you know the intentions of buglars who exist only as a creepy feeling in the back of your mind? Sounds like a good reason to keep a handgun under your bed. I also have a big bag of bear repellant to keep the bears off your porch.) Clearly that is false as people DO have security systems. And I do keep a handgun under the bed ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/636 "2012-06-07T19:07:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Voter ID laws protect the franchise and ensure that the vote the you cast is not invalidated by an invalid one. So, stop your whining, wouldya. I object because it disenfranchises more legal voters than illegal ones. I would rather let one illegal alien vote than prevent ten legal voters from going to the polling booth. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/637 "2012-06-07T19:11:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I object because it disenfranchises more legal voters than illegal ones. I would rather let one illegal alien vote than prevent ten legal voters from going to the polling booth. But the law doesn’t “prevent” legal voters from going. At most, it imposes slight additional ancillary difficulties on them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/638 "2012-06-07T19:12:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So 11 impossible people exist? I don’t understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/639 "2012-06-07T19:18:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the law doesn’t “prevent” legal voters from going. At most, it imposes slight additional ancillary difficulties on them. What do you suggest for elderly voters who were [never issued a birth certificate](http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=671), because they were born at home? > [@](#): > > African Americans are much more likely to lack these documents than whites. Roughly 2 million African Americans lack the required documents. One reason is that a substantial number of elderly African Americans apparently were never issued birth certificates because they were born at home, in large measure as a result of racial discrimination or poverty that kept their mothers from delivering in hospitals (especially in the South). One study estimated that one-fifth of African Americans born in 1939-40 were never issued birth certificates. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/640 "2012-06-07T19:21:08Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Clearly that is false as people DO have security systems. > And I do keep a handgun under the bed Wow. Really? I mean seriously. Come on! This is a joke right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=33)