# Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971 "2012-05-24T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/681 "2012-06-08T19:46:57Z")
Obvious is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/682 "2012-06-08T19:50:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Cite? First checked with an immigration attorney and they couldn’t answer whether a state ID of driver’s license displays a non-citizen status, so I called PENNDOT (Pennsylvania Department of Transportation). According to Monica, the lady with which I spoke, neither ID bears any indication of citizenship. (cross-posted in “[Yes, you DO have to show that voter fraud is actually happening](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15147540#post15147540)” thread ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/683 "2012-06-08T19:56:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I object because it disenfranchises more legal voters than illegal ones. . You have absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/684 "2012-06-08T20:01:35Z")
I’ll contribute what I always contribute in these threads. I’m always fascinated by the “it’s impossible to give everyone an ID” crowd. In my (poor country) everyone has an ID card (and, since a couple of years ago even minors get one). It costs very little and you get it for free in poor areas. If you have no birth certificate (especially in areas where terrorists destroyed records) an simple affidavit ( with a witness a priest, chief opf police, teacher) or some other document (school certificate) are enough. If piss-poor people in 20-person hamlets at 4000 m.a.s.l and 3 day’s donkey ride can get an ID it’s ridiculous to say inner city people can’t. Also, voting places have the list of voters with pictures so fraud is reduced to a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/685 "2012-06-08T20:37:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’ll contribute what I always contribute in these threads. > > I’m always fascinated by the “it’s impossible to give everyone an ID” crowd. In my (poor country) everyone has an ID card (and, since a couple of years ago even minors get one). > It costs very little and you get it for free in poor areas. If you have no birth certificate (especially in areas where terrorists destroyed records) an simple affidavit ( with a witness a priest, chief opf police, teacher) or some other document (school certificate) are enough. > If piss-poor people in 20-person hamlets at 4000 m.a.s.l and 3 day’s donkey ride can get an ID it’s ridiculous to say inner city people can’t. > Also, voting places have the list of voters with pictures so fraud is reduced to a minimum. Sounds like you all recognize one another on sight, so the ID is redundant. There are a few more people here than there. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/686 "2012-06-08T22:18:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > Citizens like Ginorio were flagged as potentially ineligible after the state’s Division of Elections compared its database with a database maintained by Florida’s **Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, which records whether a newly licensed driver is a U.S. citizen**. [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/09/2791674/state-finds-nearly-2700-foreigners.html) BTW, I got a letter today from the supervisor of elections asking me to update my signature on my registration. I was wondering when that would show up. I don’t know what people are bitching about. It came with postage paid envelope. It is nothing compared to digging out my social security card and my birth certificate when I had to renew my drivers license. Of course, the really hard part is that they made me take the eye exam again. It also turned out that they don’t accept Visa, only Mastercard. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-06/news/os-voter-signature-demand-20120606\_1\_absentee-ballots-absentee-voters-voter-registration-drives](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-06/news/os-voter-signature-demand-20120606_1_absentee-ballots-absentee-voters-voter-registration-drives) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/687 "2012-06-08T22:21:58Z")
So it is not on the driver’s license, right? Do polling places have access to this database? Do they access the database for every voter? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/688 "2012-06-09T00:03:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So it is not on the driver’s license, right? Do polling places have access to this database? Do they access the database for every voter? I already explained I don’t know. It could be encoded in the bar code or the magnetic strip or it could in special database the registers use. If they put ‘Alien’ in plain text on the front of the driver license, then they would be a privacy violation since that bouncer at a bar or the checker at Winn-Dixie doesn’t need to know your citizenship status. I suspect a database since they already have one to check if a drivers license is valid. I looked earlier today and my license is valid and it turned out that the state of Florida has unclaimed property in my name. I checked and I got over $1600 dollars coming to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/689 "2012-06-09T00:37:40Z")
Re: Voter ID impact on eligible voters > [@](#): > > Studies show that as many as 11 percent of eligible voters do not have government-issued photo ID. That percentage is even higher for seniors, people of color, people with disabilities, low-income voters, and students. Many citizens find it hard to get government photo IDs, because the underlying documentation like birth certificates (the ID one needs to get ID) is often [difficult or expensive to come by](http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/07/18/2283993/sc-husband-and-wife-doctor-couple.html). At the same time, voter ID policies are [far more costly to implement](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/the_cost_of_voter_id_laws_what_the_courts_say/) than many assume. > > [Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voter_id) For an examination on how they got that 11% figure - and how “its principal findings have been repeatedly confirmed by multiple independent studies,” click over to [“Citizens Without Proof”](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/citizens_without_proof_stands_strong/). So this should puts a number on how many people Voter ID laws affect. And whom it affects. I think it’s neat that the discussion came to undocumented immigrants voting… Because Voter ID is not really good for checking that… And it’s possible to check it without Voter ID… And when states do check into it, they often find the problem to be marginal… And when they act on things, they often threaten many legal voters from being removed from the rolls… ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/690 "2012-06-09T00:56:37Z")
Has anyone done a study of how many registered voters lack government ID? I wonder how many of the cited 11% have ever voted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/691 "2012-06-09T01:05:15Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Has anyone done a study of how many registered voters lack government ID? I wonder how many of the cited 11% have ever voted. What is giving them extra hurdles then? An incentive program? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/692 "2012-06-09T03:45:22Z")
Tough love, Republican style. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/693 "2012-06-09T14:40:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tough love, Republican style. I was always told if you think love hurts, you’re in an abusive relationship. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/694 "2012-06-09T15:21:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So it is not on the driver’s license, right? Do polling places have access to this database? Do they access the database for every voter? No they check it when you register, not when you vote. :rolleyes: Are you claiming you don’t know that? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/695 "2012-06-09T15:24:27Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > No they check it when you register, not when you vote. That’s not what the law says. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/696 "2012-06-10T00:07:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sounds like you all recognize one another on sight, so the ID is redundant. > > There are a few more people here than there. Lima, my city, has 8 million people. Very few cities in the states have larger populations. Seems like you missed the point by a light-year, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/697 "2012-06-10T00:41:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Lima, my city, has 8 million people. Very few cities in the states have larger populations. > > Seems like you missed the point by a light-year, though. I think your point was that if you can give everyone IDs, we should be able to as well. You missed my point. Your country has a population that is 10% that of the US. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/698 "2012-06-10T15:38:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s not what the law says. I said that they check citizenship when we register in Florida. If you have a cite that they actually check citizenship every time we vote in Florida instead of just checking ID, then you need to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/699 "2012-06-10T15:49:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I said that they check citizenship when we register in Florida. If you have a cite that they actually check citizenship every time we vote in Florida instead of just checking ID, then you need to provide it. So if they check citizenship when you register, why do voters need a driver’s license or passport when they vote? Any credible identification that establishes identity as that of a registered voter will satisfy that. A photo student ID issued by a state university certainly meets that requirement, yet they are specifically omitted from many voter ID laws. Why, if not for voter suppression? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/700 "2012-06-10T17:31:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So if they check citizenship when you register, why do voters need a driver’s license or passport when they vote? Any credible identification that establishes identity as that of a registered voter will satisfy that. A photo student ID issued by a state university certainly meets that requirement, yet they are specifically omitted from many voter ID laws. Why, if not for voter suppression? Where do students establish residency? A student ID does not imply residency. As a college student, I never voted in my college town; I always voted in my home town. Does a student ID show address? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971.md?page=36)