# Voting 3rd party= voting Trump. Yay or nay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 7, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093 "2016-08-07T22:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/61 "2016-08-10T03:51:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You register some kind of support instead of nothing at all. Support for what? Or for not being Hillary? > [@](#): > > And you have a possibility, however small, of actually winning an election. No you don’t. > [@](#): > > Even if you don’t get that plurality, you create an indication that someone was thinking different from the two majors. Different meaning what? That, unlike “sold out” voters, you _don’t_ want your vote to matter. Or for your agenda to be taken seriously, because _you don’t have one and can’t articulate one_. Being None Of The Above does not qualify. > [@](#): > > You accomplished a teeny-tiny thing, but it was a thing You put a little bit bigger number for a loser party in the history books. That’s still something. Only if the loser party stands \*for \*something. To repeat, what are you _for_? If you’re not working \*for \*that via the only mean you can accomplish it, then don’t tell us you’re for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/62 "2016-08-10T04:31:31Z")
I’d look at it like this, in a system like Australia’s with instant run off preference voting, you rank your preferred candidates from 1 to x. If no candidate wins an outright majority in first preference votes, the candidate with the least is removed. Then the remaining candidates are tallied again, this time with all their first preference votes PLUS any second preference votes they were given. If no candidate attains a majority, you again remove the lowest voted for candidate and in the next round, the remaining candidates get all their first and second preference votes, plus third preference votes. The process repeating until a candidate has a majority of votes cast in a given round of instant runoff voting. So, let’s say that we hypothetically had this system in America. If your “first preference” vote is Jill Stein, and your “second preference” vote is Hillary Clinton, and your “third preference” vote is Gary Johnson, and your fourth preference vote is Donald Trump [Australian IRV you **must** vote preference for every candidate listed, so you cannot churlishly say, “I NEVER prefer Trump, and will not number him!” if you leave the box next to his name blank, your entire ballot is thrown out.] Now, since we don’t actually have this system, you have to choose one candidate on election day. Let’s say you choose Jill Stein. In essence, you’re “working against your interests.” Because while Stein _was_ your first preference vote, literally anyone with a working brain knows she can never win. So in effect, your “second” and “third” preference candidates, Hillary and Johnson, are actually being “denied a vote” that could’ve gone to them, and instead went to a candidate who can never win (Johnson also can’t win obv.) So in this effect, since Trump is your _least preferred_ candidate, and you’ve voted for a candidate who cannot win, instead of a _higher-than-Trump preferred candidate who can win_, you’re essentially denying said candidate a vote. That isn’t quite the same thing as voting for Trump, but it’s similar to a Hillary supporter “spoiling their ballot” by filling it out incorrectly, which makes it easier for Trump to win in a FPTP system (there is one less vote out against him, so the # he has to hit to “be first past the post” is lower.) This is also true if you flip it, if Hillary is your least preferred candidate and say, Ron Johnson is your most preferred, a vote for him is still hurting a guy (Trump) that you prefer more than your least preferred candidate. I like instant runoff voting, and I also wish more Americans could “think this way” even though our system doesn’t work this way. Instant run off voting forces people to think about their _preference_ instead of just making a “singular choice.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/63 "2016-08-10T04:38:33Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You register some kind of support instead of nothing at all. And you have a possibility, however small, of actually winning an election. > > If you vote for the Rent Is Too Damn High candidate, all you need is for a majority (or in some states a plurality!) of other voters to do the same, and you elect a candidate. On the other hand, in most US elections, a majority of the eligible do not vote, and yet it would take absolutely everyone not voting for that to affect an election result. > > Even if you don’t get that plurality, you create an indication that someone was thinking different from the two majors. You accomplished a teeny-tiny thing, but it was a thing. You put a little bit bigger number for a loser party in the history books. That’s still something. This is also why I like IRV–staying home isn’t a choice. Or rather, you do stay at home, since voting is by mail, but it’s compulsory. Now, you can intentionally spoil your ballot, but most people don’t do that in Australia. Instead, Australians generally accept that they have to vote and they have to rank their preferences. This would be impossible for Bernie supporters, who would insist on being able to put " 1" next to his name" and refuse to rank any other candidate. But they’re generally not a logical lot. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/64 "2016-08-10T04:51:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This would be impossible for Bernie supporters, who would insist on being able to put " 1" next to his name" and refuse to rank any other candidate. But they’re generally not a logical lot. Perhaps you’re the one who isn’t logical. I was a staunch Bernie supporter, and now I’m a staunch Hillary supporter. OK, not being a US citizen or resident I can’t vote in US elections, but some of my family can and will, and they feel just the same way – Bernie was the ideal, but with Bernie out of the picture, Hillary is the only logical option, and Trump is a danger to the entire world. Given that Trump is on the ballot, it’s hard to imagine anyone except possibly the Devil incarnate on the Democratic side that would change this. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/65 "2016-08-10T09:36:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [I saw this article in my Facebook feed.](http://m.dailykos.com/story/2016/08/05/1557130/-I-told-my-friend-Donald-Trump-is-the-Republican-Party-I-ve-Known-My-Entire-Adult-Life) > > I don’t agree with it 100%, but it does have much truth. Those deserting Trump to vote for a “real conservative” ignore that Trump isn’t the _opposite_ of a modern Republican, merely a _caricature_ of it. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Why is this link in this thread? I wasn’t sure which thread was best. I’ll be happy to repost it in another thread. Suggestion? Since this thread is about Republicans(\*) who are considering not voting for Trump, it seemed worthwhile to offer a view comparing Trump with more ordinary Republicans. (\* - Yes, I know some Bernie-brats are considering not voting for Hillary. :eek: But I don’t think anyone who supported Bernie’s agenda but is unable to connect the dots and understand the importance of voting Hillary has anything to contribute or learn here.) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/66 "2016-08-10T18:47:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Different meaning what? That, unlike “sold out” voters, you _don’t_ want your vote to matter. Or for your agenda to be taken seriously, because _you don’t have one and can’t articulate one_. Being None Of The Above does not qualify. I was talking about the difference between not voting (which could be anything from “none of the above” to “any of the above”) and voting for a third party. Voting for a third party is as articulate as it gets! A third party probably has an articulate and specific platform. The GOP might arguably have one, with all those pledges. The Democrats, as a rule, do not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/67 "2016-08-10T19:21:39Z")
Depends. Look if you are in CA, go ahead and vote 3rd party. A protest vote- I get it. But if you do so in Florida, know that you will be at least partially responsible to a GWB like disaster. And 8 years of GWB was a disaster. Any Naderite who can say that GWB was better than Gore would have been is insane. We _must_ keep Trump out. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093/68 "2016-08-10T22:09:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I was talking about the difference between not voting (which could be anything from “none of the above” to “any of the above”) and voting for a third party. No. They have exactly the same effect. > [@](#): > > Voting for a third party is as articulate as it gets! Yes, and the “message” you send thereby is “I am not a responsible citizen and my vote doesn’t matter.” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > A third party probably has an articulate and specific platform. But you don’t care what that is as long as it includes not being Hillary. We do get it. Bernie _lost_. Move on to the next \*best \*thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-3rd-party-voting-trump-yay-or-nay/762093.md?page=3)