# Voting is a self-insulting when things are not improving.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 18, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629 "2011-12-18T10:21:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/21 "2011-12-18T17:59:09Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> You think he’s doing a decent job, but you’re not willing to take a few minutes of your time to defend him against one of the people the Republicans are running?
That’s right. I vote here, of course, because I do feel it is a civic duty to be engaged where you live, but America is another matter.
From abroad, I have to vote as a Californian, and I can only vote for federal offices (President, VP, Senator, US Representative). As a Californian, my vote for President, VP, and Senator is statistically insignificant. It is the most populous state, and overwhelmingly Democratic. The only place it might be relevant is the vote for Representative. When you add the irrelevance of my vote to the system as set up, I don’t feel that my vote will make a difference to Obama, and I think the numbers back me up.
---
### Author:  [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/22 "2011-12-18T18:02:33Z")
“There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for, but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong. If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without spending the enormous amount of time on it that truly intelligent exercise of franchise requires.”
– RAH
And, also from RAH:
“Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong-but the man who refuses to take sides must always be wrong! Heaven save us from poltroons who fear to make a choice. Let us stand up and be counted.”
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/23 "2011-12-18T18:09:44Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> As a Californian, my vote for President, VP, and Senator is statistically insignificant.
I have never understood this position. If you don’t vote with the majority, your vote is insignificant? That is either a very naive, or very cynical view of representative democracy.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/24 "2011-12-18T18:56:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> I have never understood this position. If you don’t vote with the majority, your vote is insignificant? That is either a very naive, or very cynical view of representative democracy.
There are approximately 16 million voters in California. My vote is therefore .000006% of the electorate.
For a more realistic example, the difference between votes for Obama and votes for McCain in 2008 was 3,262,692. If I had not voted, the difference would have been 3,262,691. How is [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]3262692[/sub] significant?
I understand that smaller races or those in swing states can come down to a much smaller margin. If you rebut, “but if everyone thought like you…” then I can come back with, “okay, then I can vote my conscience and vote third party.”
---
### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/25 "2011-12-18T19:07:03Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> There are approximately 16 million voters in California. My vote is therefore .000006% of the electorate.
>
> For a more realistic example, the difference between votes for Obama and votes for McCain in 2008 was 3,262,692. If I had not voted, the difference would have been 3,262,691. How is [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]3262692[/sub] significant?
It is 100% more significant than the guy who doesn’t vote.
> [@](#):
>
> I understand that smaller races or those in swing states can come down to a much smaller margin.
What margin would render your vote “significant”?
> [@](#):
>
> If you rebut, “but if everyone thought like you…” then I can come back with, “okay, then I can vote my conscience and vote third party.”
If you are going to argue both sides, I will just watch.
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### Author:  [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/26 "2011-12-18T19:12:17Z")
I always thought that if you were just too lazy to vote, that is a bad thing. However, if you have looked at the candidates and genuinely do not like any of them, then not voting would not make you “bad American” or whatever the term would be.
That said, I like the suggestion by **Acid Lamp** , too.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/27 "2011-12-18T19:14:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> It is 100% more significant than the guy who doesn’t vote.
True.
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> What margin would render your vote “significant”?
I don’t know, maybe a [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]1,000,000[/sub] chance it might affect the outcome?
Remember that this is also colored by the fact that I no longer live in the US and do not plan to do so again. I am still subject to US laws, including the obligation to file taxes, but I do not really have representation in Congress because I do not reside in a congressional district. The only reason I’m allowed to vote at all is a law passed in the 1980s to make sure the Republicans didn’t lose votes from military personnel stationed overseas.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/28 "2011-12-18T19:26:05Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> True.I don’t know, maybe a [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]1,000,000[/sub] chance it might affect the outcome?
But every vote affects the outcome equally. So saying your vote is insignificant is like saying all votes are insignificant. But we know that is not true because someone always wins.
If the difference in an election was one vote, you vote is no more significant than if the difference is a million votes.
---
### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/29 "2011-12-18T19:30:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> But every vote affects the outcome equally. So saying your vote is insignificant is like saying all votes are insignificant. But we know that is not true because someone always wins.
>
> If the difference in an election was one vote, you vote is no more significant than if the difference is a million votes.
That is both true and misleading. No single vote is significant; it is only collectively that they are significant. Without individual votes, there could be no collective votes, of course, but that is not the same as saying that any given vote, taken in isolation, is crucial.
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/30 "2011-12-18T19:46:57Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#):
>
> “There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for, but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong. If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without spending the enormous amount of time on it that truly intelligent exercise of franchise requires.”
>
> – RAH
>
> And, also from RAH:
>
> “Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong-but the man who refuses to take sides must always be wrong! Heaven save us from poltroons who fear to make a choice. Let us stand up and be counted.”
Dang, you beat me to it, my two favorite quotes about voting. I’d already gone and got links!😃
Just yesterday my grandmother turned 107. She’s voted in every Presidential election since Herbert Hoover was running, twenty-one times she’s voted for a US President. If a little old lady is willing to make the effort, anyone can. And she doesn’t tell us who she votes for either, except for the worker who has to help her fill out the ballot on account of her poor eyesight. But I suspect my last vote and hers canceled each other out, as she had a McCain/Palin sticker in her room.😃
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### Author:  [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/31 "2011-12-18T20:19:00Z")
Hello, **Reza**! I know this is a practice essay, so I hope you don’t mind if I offer some comments about your writing, rather than the substance of your essay.
The first is that you use ‘self-insulting’ as a noun. It is actually an adjective. You could instead write ‘Voting is a self-insult,’ but that isn’t a phrase I hear very often so I would stay away from it.
Another option would be to rephrase the sentence: “To vote when things are not improvement is to insult yourself!”, although that is a bit awkward.
> [@Reza](#):
>
> I believe to vote passively when you do not agree to the whole system is so frustrating because you know things are not going to advance and quite the opposite - as the previous elected candidates proved it through their mismanagement and corruption – they are going down the drain.
I like your use of ‘going down the drain.’ I would consider rewriting this sentence. To me, it sounds a bit more natural to write ‘I believe voting passively…’ than to write ‘I believe to vote passively…’. Also, ‘agree to’ implies an explicit agreement; we might agree to a repayment agreement, for example, or other contract. ‘Agree with’ has a connotation of approval. If I lived in a fascist country, then, I would not agree to the system, but I never explicitly agreed to the laws of my country anyway. I do, however, agree with many laws in my country, and so if I thought the values, morals, and ethics underlying the system were wrong, it would make more sense to say I did not agree with the system.
I hope that distinction is clear!
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### Author:  [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/32 "2011-12-18T21:21:54Z")
I didn’t see the part at the bottom about it being a practice essay. I also didn’t realize that **Reza** was not in the U.S.
**Reza** , I bet you didn’t think you’d start such an argument with your practice essay. 😃
Welcome to DU and I hope that we haven’t frightened you away.
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/33 "2011-12-18T22:09:32Z")
The OP’s sentiment is exactly what people were saying in 1930s Germany; a place where things had also gotten really bad economically.
Yeah, I went there.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/34 "2011-12-18T22:29:08Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> That is both true and misleading. No single vote is significant; it is only collectively that they are significant. Without individual votes, there could be no collective votes, of course, but that is not the same as saying that any given vote, taken in isolation, is crucial.
The fallacy is taking any votes in isolation.
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### Author:  [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/35 "2011-12-18T22:54:27Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> I didn’t see the part at the bottom about it being a practice essay. I also didn’t realize that **Reza** was not in the U.S.
>
> **Reza** , I bet you didn’t think you’d start such an argument with your practice essay. 😃
>
> Welcome to DU and I hope that we haven’t frightened you away.
**Reza** has been posting practice essays here for a while. His English has improved markedly over the past few months, due in part (I’m sure) to the helpful comments the Dope has given him. He won’t be too distressed, I’m sure. 🙂
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### Author:  [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/36 "2011-12-18T23:21:23Z")
I vote even thou there is rarely anyone I want to vote for. I find it easy to find someone I can vote against. Very few elections are good vs. evil and they are usually a battle between two idiots. I quite comfortable voting for the lesser idiot. In local elections I tend to vote for incumbents, unless they are blatant screw-ups. I don’t expect to get good government. I just want whoever will do less damage.
I also think you register for a party and vote in the primaries. It may result in slightly less sucky candidates in the general election.
It is important to never treat an election like the end of the world. Even if the other guy is the antichrist, there are checks and balances all over the place and there is a limit to the good or bad any one man can do. If it is obvious that they are screw ups, then it will get fixed next time around and this country has already survived a lot of screw ups.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/37 "2011-12-19T00:11:52Z")
Okay, responding to the message:
Democracy does work. Even if all you’re doing is throwing out one bunch of incompetents and replacing them with a different bunch of incompetents, you’ve still put the first group of incompetents out of office. And they don’t want to be out of office. When the price of incompetency becomes losing office, then you will be motivating office holders to be less incompetent. As long as you’ve got two choices, the candidates will do enough to be your first choice rather than your second choice.
And now responding to the text:
“Self-insulting” isn’t really a word used in English. You’d be better off saying voting is pointless or voting is meaningless.
It should be “would tell you” instead of “would talk back to you”.
It should be “a forthcoming election”.
“If I should care a lot to the society I live in” should be “I care a lot about the society I live in”.
It should be just “not a single benefit” instead of “no solitary benefit”.
It should be “earth” not “earthy”.
It should be “can I convince myself to vote” not “can I convince my sanity to vote”.
You used several redundancies. “Nothing and nothing” was the most obvious but you also used “mismanagement and corruption”, “statistics and reports”, “improvement and progress”, and “wrong and faulty”.
“Spitting out right up your own head” isn’t an idiom I’ve seen in English. You might try “spitting in your own face” instead.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/38 "2011-12-19T00:28:48Z")
Thing have improved though. We killed Qadaffi, the traitor guy in Yemen (forgot his name), and best of all Bin Laden. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Reza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reza)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/39 "2011-12-19T08:18:00Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#):
>
> I find it interesting that the OP lists her location as “Tehran.”
cuz this is where He is from and lives!
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### Author:  [@Reza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reza)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voting-is-a-self-insulting-when-things-are-not-improving/606629/40 "2011-12-19T08:28:32Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> So you vote for the party closest to your beliefs. That’s necessary but not sufficient. You should also work on the ground to change that party. Get involved locally. Become a committee person. Run for office. Register voters. Contact your representatives and tell them how you feel. Take place in peaceful protests to raise the awareness of the public.
>
> None of this, of course, applies to **Reza**. Being from Iran he or she is working under a different set of circumstances.
Yes, doesn’t apply to me, but the general complaint of the text could happen in any other places you would live.
As a matter of fact, I’m practicing my writing. So members can comment and edit my writing, while I enjoyed reading all the responses. At least made my awareness about things over there grew more!
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