# Vowels and letters (W as a vowel) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 30, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972 "2005-03-30T17:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/21 "2005-04-04T15:11:40Z")
> [@Steel Rat](#): > > What gets me is how you get “Lester” from “Leicester”? The same way as you get /gloster/ from “Gloucester” and /wooster/ from “Worcester” – and /wensday/ from “Wednesday” – i.e., by dropping an unstressed syllable. ---
**Author:** ![Steel\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/22 "2005-04-04T15:33:09Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The same way as you get /gloster/ from “Gloucester” and /wooster/ from “Worcester” – and /wensday/ from “Wednesday” – i.e., by dropping an unstressed syllable. Actually Wooster is a different city, I think, than Worcester. and I’ve usually heard the latter referred to as “Worster”. And I don’t agree with those pronunciations either. Leicester seems to be more eggregious than most, or did I dream it? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/23 "2005-04-04T15:41:19Z")
> [@Steel Rat](#): > > Actually Wooster is a different city, I think, than Worcester. and I’ve usually heard the latter referred to as “Worster”. And I don’t agree with those pronunciations either. > > Leicester seems to be more eggregious than most, or did I dream it? There’s a town in Ohio called Wooster, pronounced the same way as the English city Worcester. And Leicester is definitely pronounced /lester/ – my mother came from that city, and I’ve been there many times. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/24 "2005-04-04T18:28:39Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > I just dutifully memorized and regurgitated it on queue. I’m sure your brain thought “cue” but your fingers typed “queue.” > [@El Zagna](#): > > I for one welcome our new linguistic overlords. Hail Linguists! ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/25 "2005-04-04T18:49:24Z")
> [@Steel Rat](#): > > I think partially because of the use of the words “an” and “a”. As far as I know, “a” is used before a consonant sound (a Cow), “an” is used before a vowel sound (an Otter). Which is an example of exactly why talking about _letters_, instead of _sounds_, confuses things: H is a not a vowel, but: _an honor_, _an herb_, etc. On the other hand: _a honk_, _a hermit_, etc. Or should we just call H a semi-vowel too? :smack: However, there are a few situations when talking about _letters_ is the primary teaching tool, namely, with certain rules of orthography. _E.g._, when to double a consonant letter before _-ing_: ``` *wait* => *waiting* ``` Whereas: ``` *cut* => *cutting* ``` This has nothing to do with phonetics (though it does, at times, have to do with stress). ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/26 "2005-04-04T19:03:16Z")
> [@etmiller](#): > > However, there are a few situations when talking about _letters_ is the primary teaching tool, namely, with certain rules of orthography. _E.g._, when to double a consonant letter before _-ing_… Then again: _die_ (“to cease to live”) =\> _dying_ While: _die_ (“to impress, shape” etc.) =\> _dieing_ 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/27 "2005-04-04T20:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > H is a not a vowel, but: an honor, an herb, etc. > > On the other hand: a honk, a hermit, etc. By the same token: An umbrella, but a unicorn, since “unicorn” is pronounced “yooneekorn”. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/28 "2005-04-04T21:17:00Z")
> [@Steel Rat](#): > > Actually Wooster is a different city, I think, than Worcester. and I’ve usually heard the latter referred to as “Worster”. And I don’t agree with those pronunciations either. > > Leicester seems to be more eggregious than most, or did I dream it? Well, in Britain I hear there exist the last names: Marjoribanks: /Marchbanks/ Cholmondeley: /Chumley/ Featherstonehaugh: /Fanshaw/ ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/29 "2005-04-04T22:00:52Z")
> [@Steel Rat](#): > > Actually Wooster is a different city, I think, than Worcester. and I’ve usually heard the latter referred to as “Worster”. And I don’t agree with those pronunciations either. Assuming you’re talking about the same Worcester as the rest of us (ie the original one 😉 ), it’s definitely ‘Wooster’. > [@](#): > > Leicester seems to be more eggregious than most, or did I dream it? If you’re talking about the city itself, then maybe, yes… > [@](#): > > Well, in Britain I hear there exist the last names: > > Marjoribanks: /Marchbanks/ > Cholmondeley: /Chumley/ > Featherstonehaugh: /Fanshaw/ Don’t forget St John, which featured in _Four Weddings…_ ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/30 "2005-04-05T12:30:43Z")
Worcester Massachusetts is WIS-ter. I don’t know why. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/31 "2005-04-05T13:01:17Z")
At the risk of taking this even further OT, there’s a village in Cornwall called “Mousehole” which is pronounced “mouzle”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/32 "2005-04-05T14:53:05Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > Cecil’s answer is perfectly logical “w” is part of of diphthong so, despite the OP’s quibble, must be a vowel. Why weren’t most of us taught, “Sometimes Y and W” then? Is it because “W” can _only_ be part of a diphthong (except in a few obscure cases) while “Y” can often stand alone? What about _were_, _where_, _why_, etc.? Are these examples of dipthongs? If so, the same part of the dipthong in _how_? Also: English spelling often uses a single letter to represent a dipthong–this might be because English dipthongs are pronounced in such a compressed manner. Example: _I_ = /ai/. I agree with **bordelond** that, with letters (and sounds), the distinction between “vowel” and “consonant” can be quite blurred. I maintain that the reason for a teacher to assign these terms can serve only to help with a few spelling rules, and I’d bet that few of even the best copy editors could actually tell you what those rules are–they just “know” them from reading a lot. Grade school teachers talk about vowel letters and consonant letters mostly because that’s what they think they’re supposed to teach. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/33 "2005-04-06T03:32:45Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > I often ask foreign students of English to read the follow sentence aloud: > “The rough, tough, dough-faced ploughman coughed and hiccoughed his way from Slough to Loughborough.” When they’ve mastered that, start them in on [this](http://www.mipmip.dsl.pipex.com/tidbits/pronunciation.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/34 "2005-04-06T11:31:20Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’m sure your brain thought “cue” but your fingers typed “queue.” Ah, good point. I’ve been studying about message queues lately, so my fevered brain is somewhat obsessed. Still, I like your idea of blaming it on my fingers. Meanwhile, no **etmiller** , I don’t think the “w” in were or where is part of a diphthong. It seems to me that it’s acting as a consonant there. That’s different from how it acts in “how”. If it were spelled “hou” or “hao”, we would call “ou” or “ao” diphthongs. I’m still not clear, why do we usually hear “sometimes Y”, but rarely “sometimes W”? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/35 "2005-04-06T17:12:42Z")
From [English Grammar in Familiar Lectures](http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:2kp4sa5h20MJ:www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/4/0/7/14070/14070-h/14070-h.htm+%22sometimes+w%22+history+vowel&hl=en), which dates from [1828](http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trr132.html), and is available from [Project Gutenberg](http://www.gutenberg.org/), > [@](#): > > I. LETTERS. A letter is the first principle, or least part, of a word. > The English Alphabet contains twenty-six letters. > They are divided into vowels and consonants. > A vowel is a letter that can be perfectly sounded by itself. The vowels are a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes w and y. W and y are consonants when they begin a word or syllable; but in every other situation they are vowels. > A consonant is a letter that cannot be perfectly sounded without the help of a vowel; as, b, d, f, l. All letters except the vowels are consonants. > Consonants are divided into mutes and semi-vowels. > The mutes cannot be sounded at all without the aid of a vowel. They are b, p, t, d, k, and c and g hard. > The semi-vowels have an imperfect sound of themselves. They are f, l, m, n, r, v, s, z, x, and c and g soft. > Four of the semi-vowels, namely, l, m, n, r, are called liquids, because they readily unite with other consonants, and flow, as it were, into their sounds. > A diphthong is the union of two vowels, pronounced by a single impulse of the voice; as oi in voice, ou in sound. > A triphthong is the union of three vowels pronounced in like manner; as, eau in beau, iew in view. > A proper diphthong has both the vowels sounded; as, ou in ounce. An improper diphthong has only one of the vowels sounded; as, oa in boat. So the “W is sometimes a vowel” idea has been around a long time. I, too, would be interested in whether it was always hit-or-miss whether W was included along with Y, or if it always used to be included, but got dropped along the way for some reason. I like the breakdown of the consonants into mutes, semi-vowels, and liquids in the quote above. To this non-linguist, that makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/36 "2005-04-06T17:43:43Z")
I notice that that quote does not classify h, j, or q, and I would debate x and soft g’s status as semi-vowels. Of course, they completely avoid the question of the difference between perfect and imperfect sounding… I fail to see how “eeee” is more perfect than “ssss”. And most English speakers find it easier to unite “s” with other consonants than they do “m”, which also casts doubt on their definition or examples of the liquids. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972/37 "2005-04-06T18:06:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I notice that that quote does not classify h, j, or q, and I would debate x and soft g’s status as semi-vowels. Of course, they completely avoid the question of the difference between perfect and imperfect sounding… I fail to see how “eeee” is more perfect than “ssss”. And most English speakers find it easier to unite “s” with other consonants than they do “m”, which also casts doubt on their definition or examples of the liquids. Needless to say, that particular link really can’t be considered authoritative anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vowels-and-letters-w-as-a-vowel/296972.md?page=1)