# VP Debates Thread, or "Beauty and the Beast" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649 "2004-10-05T15:08:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/361 "2004-10-06T04:23:04Z")
> [@The King of Soup](#): > > …it exposed Cheney to an obvious counterattack… He should learn from George Castanza-- you can’t go back later with a zinger that you missed the first time. Do you know the Seinfeld episode I’m talking about? 🙂 At any rate, that WILL be the soundbite people play, and you can’t defuse it with an after-debate comment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/362 "2004-10-06T04:36:55Z")
Oh yeah, well the jerk store called and they’re runnung out of YOU! ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/363 "2004-10-06T04:41:22Z")
> [@The King of Soup](#): > > That would be the (paraphrase) “I’ve presided over the Senate for four years and tonight is the first time I’ve met you” line. I picked up on that myself, because it exposed Cheney to an obvious counterattack (that never came): “The Vice President has not previously met with me and is willing to tell the American people so. We should not read too much into this, as after all I am only a Senator and not an anonymous oil company executive seeking to set the nation’s energy policy in secret meetings. Were that the case, the situation would be reversed: I’d have spent much time with Mr. Cheney, and he would not be telling anyone about it.” Too bad [photographic evidence](http://mywebpages.comcast.net/atrios/ec.jpg) seems to contradict this. Too bad nobody at the AP would tackle this one and that a blog had to. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/364 "2004-10-06T04:44:29Z")
okay the AP actually has a story on this now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/365 "2004-10-06T04:46:55Z")
> [@Merkwurdigliebe](#): > > Too bad [photographic evidence](http://mywebpages.comcast.net/atrios/ec.jpg) seems to contradict this. Too bad nobody at the AP would tackle this one and that a blog had to. That photo doesn’t do it for me. I think you need to find one of them shaking hands. Otherwise, they’re just two ships passing in the night… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/366 "2004-10-06T04:47:41Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Actually, it looked a bit like Dad had caught Junior drinking and was going to confiscate the car keys… Isn’t Bush not Junior? I thought since he was George W. Bush, and not HW, he wasn’t a Jr. Also, I don’t think HW took his keys away any of the times W was drinking and driving, but I could be wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/367 "2004-10-06T04:50:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > That photo doesn’t do it for me. I think you need to find one of them shaking hands. Otherwise, they’re just two ships passing in the night… How about a quote from Cheney > [@](#): > > Addressing the National Prayer Breakast, Cheney said: “Thank you. Thank you very much. Congressman Watts, Senator Edwards, friends from across America and distinguished visitors to our country from all over the world, Lynne and I honored to be with you all this morning.” [FDCH Political Transcripts, Cheney Remarks at the National Prayer Breakfast, 2/1/01] Two ships that passed in the night, with one specifically greeting the other. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/368 "2004-10-06T04:50:57Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > He should learn from George Castanza-- you can’t go back later with a zinger that you missed the first time. Do you know the Seinfeld episode I’m talking about? 🙂 At any rate, that WILL be the soundbite people play, and you can’t defuse it with an after-debate comment. I’m hardly suggesting that Edwards should run back out to the cameras and try it out, for heavens’ sake, I’m just saying I’m surprised Cheney opened himself up like that. And if the Democrats can plant a good version of that answer in the public consciousness in the next 24 hours, that soundbite may not be around long. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/369 "2004-10-06T04:54:01Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > How about a quote from Cheney > > Two ships that passed in the night, with one specifically greeting the other. Nope, that could easily just be a courtesy refrence from the guy leading the meeting. It’s gotta be shaking hands. That’s what you do when you “meet”. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/370 "2004-10-06T05:09:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Nope, that could easily just be a courtesy refrence from the guy leading the meeting. It’s gotta be shaking hands. That’s what you do when you “meet”. I thought you were joking, but now I’m not so sure. You’re saying that they didn’t meet if they sat next to each other and Cheney addressed Edwards in his opening remarks? No, you can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/371 "2004-10-06T05:16:14Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > How about a quote from Cheney > > Two ships that passed in the night, with one specifically greeting the other. Seems that if Edwards recalled “meeting” Cheney he might have said as much. Sadly, Edward’s reply would have been no better - “No, Vice President, we met once, remember? At breakfest.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/372 "2004-10-06T05:19:07Z")
Unlikely. Edwards, I recall, seldom has breakfast, and Cheney hasn’t a prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/373 "2004-10-06T05:26:20Z")
Cheney also failed to mention that, while he does attend every Tuesday, these are for strategy meetings. With Republicans. Only Republicans. He is unlikely to run into Edwards there. The real criticism this was intended to convey is that Edwards is missing votes. I have no problem with this, because he is running for the Vice Presidency, for pete’s sake. Example: he was in Cleveland tonight, instead of Washington. I was hopeful that he would respond by saying just that, and saying, “During my campaign, while you’ve been in Washington, I’ve been meeting with people all across this country. They’ve been sharing their concerns, and they feel…” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/374 "2004-10-06T05:44:38Z")
I didn’t see the debate, and the C-SPAN feed keeps dying every thirty seconds, but the snippits I caught indicate that the fairest way to assess the debate was to call it a tie. Neither person got a TKO on the other, though there were a few good sound bites from both of them. I’d _like_ to believe the media will call Cheney on his nonstop lying barriage (I can’t believe he denied ever linking Iraq and Al Qaeda with a straight face), but I doubt (a) the press will do it, nor (b) it will convince voters that Cheney is a lying dog. As for **Brutus’** loony assertion that only Evil Democrats™ jam public polls after debates, I refer you to [this pre-dabate directive](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/5/171017/757) from Bush-Cheney '04: > [@](#): > > _# Immediately after the debate, visit online polls, chat rooms, and discussion boards and make your voice heard. The major news networks will all have internet polls after the debate. Make sure you vote in polls on: \* [MSNBC.com](http://MSNBC.com) \* [FoxNews.com](http://FoxNews.com) \* [ABCNews.com](http://ABCNews.com) \* [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) \* and even CBS._ And we’re not talking about an “unofficial” 529 or somesuch, we’re talking Bush-Cheney '04. But then, distorting the truth is a stock-in-trade for the GOP, annit? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/375 "2004-10-06T05:53:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > refer you to [this pre-dabate directive](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/5/171017/757) from Bush-Cheney '04: No, you refer us to ‘The Daily Kos’, which in turn refers us to some post by some guy at some site. Credible as ever, **rjung**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/376 "2004-10-06T06:04:32Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I thought you were joking, but now I’m not so sure. You’re saying that they didn’t meet if they sat next to each other and Cheney addressed Edwards in his opening remarks? > > No, you can’t be serious. I’ve been in situations just like that myself where it would be fair to say I never met the person sitting next to me. I expect that the VP often buzzes in and out of meetings very quickly with a few prepared remarks. I think the look on Edwards’ face during the debate when he was called to task essentially for being a Senatorial lightweight said it all. If Edwards wants to press the issue in the days to come, I can imagine Cheney adding something like: “Well, if we did meet, you didn’t make much of an impression.” If Edwards is smart, he’ll let sleeping dogs lie. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/377 "2004-10-06T07:12:06Z")
And the whole point about ‘this is the first time we’ve met’ was to punctuate the fact that Edwards has an abysmal record. He’s a one-term senator, and he’s spent half of it running for President. Being a Senator is supposed to be a serious job. You’re there to represent the needs of your constituents. It looks to me like Edwards saw it as a springboard to higher glory. Cheney called him on it. From that perspective, pointing out that you met at a luncheon somewhere or wherever they were supposed to have met doesn’t help your case. I think Edwards is a better politician than Kerry, and he’d make a much better President. But he needs more experience. If he loses, he should put in a full term as Senator, and come back around 2012 when he’ll be 59, will have some experience on some serious committees, and has some gravitas behind him. With his natural talent, he’s got a great future if he doesn’t ruin it with overweening ambition. Tonight Cheney made him look like a lightweight. Which he is. He’s only been in government for a few years. There are probably people on this board who understand foreign policy and economics better than he does. He needs a bit of seasoning. But once he has it, he could be a superstar in the party. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/378 "2004-10-06T07:40:01Z")
I’m a committed Kerry voter, and I think Cheney took Edwards to the woodshed. Of course, I should clarify: _on presentation._ The facts being tossed about in this debate were as slippery as a freshly oiled frog, but the position Cheney argued, at the end of the day, is pretty much indefensible (Iraq’s a mess, the rich-skewed tax cuts were a terrible idea, etc.). And yet, Cheney put forward the perfect face for maximum public impact. He displayed _just enough_ irritation to convey the feeling that he’s doing this out of a sense of duty but he has _much more important_ things he could be doing. The choice to be seated gives him the aura of an administrator, a public servant behind a desk who _gets things done_, and he was able to rattle through his prepared material much more efficiently than his boss the other night. And, of course, he went back to the old standbys of reminding people just how shitless scared they’re supposed to be and implying that anything short of global carpet-bombing will expose the throats of the country’s children to Islamic gila monsters or something, a tack that obviously still has a lot of traction despite its utter moral bankruptcy. In comparison, Edwards is smart, charismatic, and capable, but _political._ Cheney has a totally different style that makes the same old bullshit sound new and fresh and important. It’s bullshit, but he sells it like a wizard. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/379 "2004-10-06T07:58:58Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No, you refer us to ‘The Daily Kos’, which in turn refers us to some post by some guy at some site. Yeah, and if the Daily Kos posts a link to an article in the **New York Times,** that automatically makes the article unsuitable, eh? :rolleyes: You’re amusing when you’re desperate, **Brutus.** ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649/380 "2004-10-06T08:12:06Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Yeah, and if the Daily Kos posts a link to an article in the **New York Times,** that automatically makes the article unsuitable, eh? :rolleyes: Answer me this: Did he link to the NYT, or did he link to [some fucking blog.](http://cif.rochester.edu/~gogl/drupal/?q=node/view/145) You really should read your own ‘cites’ once or twice. (certainly not ‘cites’ in the traditional sense, but ‘The Daily Kos’ is about as good as can be expected from you.) You are never amusing, just desperate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vp-debates-thread-or-beauty-and-the-beast/267649.md?page=20)