# VW.... bugging you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216 "2015-09-22T16:20:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/21 "2015-09-22T20:19:38Z")
Read that they’ve stopped sales of diesels in the US, so one more set of people they screwed is their dealer network, who are stuck with cars they can’t sell. It reminds me a bit of the common practice of tuning a compiler for a new microprocessor for the standard set of benchmarks. But there is no pollution as a result. I can’t wait to find out what moron thought this was a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/22 "2015-09-22T21:09:11Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > By my understanding of the issue, the fix should be fairly simple. All the components to make the vehicles meet emission standards are already in place and can be activated by the onboard computers. The fix will be to just have the emissions control system always active like it should be. I suppose the question at that point is how much of a performance hit the vehicles will be taking. Will they be going from 25 and 30 MPG to 15 and 20? Potentially true, although it’s possible that enabling the engine software to always operate in low-emission mode will affect things other than performance. The engine could run hotter and wear the moving parts faster, it could leave increased deposits on the valves, or probably a host of other issues. Things like that would shorten the life of the engine. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/23 "2015-09-22T21:14:29Z")
What was crappy is that other auto manufactures were really trying, that blue liquid additive to help reduce diesels emissions. When I heard about VW’s diesel I was amazed that they were able to meet the emissions without that liquid, thinking way to go VW, advancements we need. Now looking at it I do feel deceived and that they took unfair advantage of the other auto manufactures as theirs didn’t require the blue liquid, so not only were they cheating they were doing it in a way that made them seem better then those who were going the extra effort to clean up the exhaust. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/24 "2015-09-22T21:16:38Z")
Imagine that, a car manufacturer who lies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/25 "2015-09-22T22:10:22Z")
Next to the guy who buys the patent on a medicine desperately needed by millions, and jacks up the price to the stratosphere? A saint. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/26 "2015-09-22T22:38:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > E. You were afraid someone would be mean to you if you posted in the pit People do have the habit of randomly attacking posters in the BBQ Pit, often for reasons unrelated to the OP. I think Diceman was right, altho IMHO would be better. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/27 "2015-09-22T22:43:07Z")
If you can’t make cars that run well without polluting, maybe you shouldn’t make cars at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/28 "2015-09-22T23:53:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It reminds me a bit of the common practice of tuning a compiler for a new microprocessor for the standard set of benchmarks. But there is no pollution as a result. Or Federal regulations for it. At any rate, tuning benchmarks is not, on its own, a sign of malfeasance. But if the “tuning” consists of “if (executableName == “linpack.exe”) { insertHandOptimizedStuff(); }”, then there’s something of a problem. Just putting a bit more effort into the kinds of code sequences that your benchmark uses isn’t a huge deal. Given that VW’s detection consisted (in part) of detecting the steering wheel position, their optimization was much more like the former case than the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/29 "2015-09-22T23:58:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What was crappy is that other auto manufactures were really trying, that blue liquid additive to help reduce diesels emissions. When I heard about VW’s diesel I was amazed that they were able to meet the emissions without that liquid, thinking way to go VW, advancements we need. I have a friend with a 2013 (maybe 14) Passat TDI, which is supposedly affected by the issue here, and it definitely takes the blue fluid. Maybe VW was trying to reduce the amount of fluid used so as to be more convenient for customers. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/30 "2015-09-23T00:08:22Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I have a friend with a 2013 (maybe 14) Passat TDI, which is supposedly affected by the issue here, and it definitely takes the blue fluid. Maybe VW was trying to reduce the amount of fluid used so as to be more convenient for customers. After your post and a quick search it does appear that this is the case, but that does suggest to a fairly easy fix, no power reduction, no MPG reduction, just modify the program and fill the blue fluid as often as every other diesel. For the recall VW should provide it for free, which should satisfy the complaints for any false advertising. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/31 "2015-09-23T00:38:16Z")
I like my VW CC. It’s not a diesel, so I guess I’m okay. This is going to cost them a fortune. Could the person who came up with this brilliant idea face any criminal charges? I don’t think anyone at GM is facing any charges for their deception, but maybe that’s different somehow? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/32 "2015-09-23T00:57:28Z")
Let’s throw in a little hate for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It was illegal to circumvent the copy protection to look at the code, so this had to be figured out by manual sleuthing. Let people see the code for the item they OWN, maybe this is found out by 2011. But no, we can’t see the code (legally) in the items we buy, and are just left to assume that the manufacturers have our best interest at heart. Manufacturers like [Sony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/33 "2015-09-23T01:18:24Z")
I have a 2009 TDI. There is no blue fluid. My car is also exempt from DC emissions tests, soooo… Not sure where that leaves me ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/34 "2015-09-23T02:11:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know who else built VWs with shitty emissions? Robert McNamara? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/35 "2015-09-23T04:51:22Z")
For your amusement, here is a now-laughable [review](http://www.autotrader.com/green-car/the-difference-with-todays-diesel-117060) of a 2011 VW diesel, praising its magically high performance and super-low emissions accomplished without the need for a urea additive system. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/36 "2015-09-23T05:19:10Z")
Heads could roll, from [here](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-20/vw-s-u-s-diesel-dupe-challenges-ceo-after-fight-to-keep-his-job): > [@](#): > > The revelation of deliberate deception, carrying the risk of as much as $18 billion in fines and potential criminal charges for executives, hit just days before Volkswagen’s board meets to renew [CEO] Winterkorn’s contract through 2018. Think VW will renew? > [@](#): > > Trying to pin the blame on rogue engineers probably won’t appease U.S. regulators, Max Warburton, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein Ltd., said in a note on Sunday. The best-case scenario is a multi-billion-dollar fine, damage to its diesel market share and “pariah status in the U.S. with government, and possibly consumers,” he said. > “ **There is no way to put an optimistic spin on this** ,” Warburton said. The issue is “profoundly serious.” Bolding mine. How’s that, OP? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/37 "2015-09-23T08:33:24Z")
Mind numbingly stupid, and who ever approved this must have known sooner or later it would come out. Particularly annoying as VW make some great cars. The new Golf R, for example, is phenomenal. One of the best handling cars I’ve ever driven. Then there’s also their affiliate brands, who also do great cars (the Skoda Yeti is probably the best all rounder family car ever made) So, all a bit shit, really. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/38 "2015-09-23T10:06:00Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > By my understanding of the issue, the fix should be fairly simple. All the components to make the vehicles meet emission standards are already in place and can be activated by the onboard computers. The fix will be to just have the emissions control system always active like it should be. I suppose the question at that point is how much of a performance hit the vehicles will be taking. Will they be going from 25 and 30 MPG to 15 and 20? I don’t think it’s that easy. As I understand it urea was injected under testing conditions. It’s not merely a matter of injecting it all the time, because the cars aren’t equipped to do that. This whole thing just boggles the mind and I wonder if more will come out about it. How did VW think they wouldn’t eventually get caught? Did they have some loophole they hoped they could (and now will have to try to) use? Despite popular perception my experience is that most large companies generally fuck up through negligence, or via individual employees making decisions that upper management aren’t aware of, or through developing an internal culture in which they come to believe their actions are OK or merely a grey area. Completely deliberate efforts to cheat on a grand scale ratified by at least middle if not upper management and with (presumably) knowledge of entire departments of engineers are extraordinarily rare in my experience. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/39 "2015-09-23T11:56:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I don’t think it’s that easy. As I understand it urea was injected under testing conditions. It’s not merely a matter of injecting it all the time, because the cars aren’t equipped to do that. > > This whole thing just boggles the mind and I wonder if more will come out about it. How did VW think they wouldn’t eventually get caught? Did they have some loophole they hoped they could (and now will have to try to) use? > > Despite popular perception my experience is that most large companies generally fuck up through negligence, or via individual employees making decisions that upper management aren’t aware of, or through developing an internal culture in which they come to believe their actions are OK or merely a grey area. > > Completely deliberate efforts to cheat on a grand scale ratified by at least middle if not upper management and with (presumably) knowledge of entire departments of engineers are extraordinarily rare in my experience. Amazing. VW is a very small bit player in the US, Subaru for example sells over twice as many cars as they do. VW is a state owned company that primarily operates in Europe and China, two places where the authorities are far more corrupt and accommodating to large industrial concerns than the relatively liberal US. Maybe when in your biggest market you have the government in your pocket you get use to flouting regulation. I should add that my source for Europe being corrupt is Bob Lutz. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/40 "2015-09-23T12:31:44Z")
1/ it isn’t state owned 2/ your views on Europe and the US and their relative accommodation of large industrial concerns are … amusing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216.md?page=3)