# VW.... bugging you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216 "2015-09-22T16:20:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/41 "2015-09-23T12:59:05Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > 1/ it isn’t state owned > > 2/ your views on Europe and the US and their relative accommodation of large industrial concerns are … amusing. Well you’re the one who asked. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/42 "2015-09-23T13:04:44Z")
Can someone guesstimate as to how many people had to have been in on this purposeful deceit? I’m guessing the CEO is probably not the programmer, but I have no real idea. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/43 "2015-09-23T16:52:07Z")
I’d like to know this too. As a WAG, I bet many dozens, if not hundreds, of people knew about this. My totally-second-hand impression of automotive engineering is that it is a huge crisis if all the cars in June and July were assembled with a dodgy batch of parts, such that 10% of the parts will fail in a way that increases emissions. Fixing that crisis will involve (say) the powertrain reliability team, the emissions team, the engineers that oversee assembly, the team that designed the specific motor, etc. Right there, that’s a couple dozen people. In the case of VW, multiply that by every distinct vehicle and engine made in the last six years. And multiply that by the typical employee turnover. ---
**Author:** ![John\_D\_Adamo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@John\_D\_Adamo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_D_Adamo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/44 "2015-09-23T18:00:09Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Their stock is down big. This might be the biggest criminal enforcement action in corporate history. I think if you own one of those diesels, not only have you been deliberately duped by VW, but I think you are pretty much screwed. Your trade in value is likely to go way down. When VW fixes those cars it is almost surely going to impact performance, so you will end up with a car that is far crappier than you bargained for. [/QUOTE] This seems pretty Godawful. Class action forthcoming? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/45 "2015-09-23T18:21:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Sorry. I didn’t see that. Than again, it was in MPSIMS. > > Did you put it there because: > > A. The environment is trivial > B. You consider VWs violation minor > C. You are so jaded by corporate malfeasance that it no longer generates any real > emotional outrage > D. You have poor thread placement skills > E. You were afraid someone would be mean to you if you posted in the pit > F. All the cool people hang out in MPSIMS so you wanted to post there. > G. You are using a browser that requires you to reboot your computer in order to change forums > H. Something else H. Something else is undoubtedly the answer: people in the Pit use BAD LANGUAGE–which YOUR GRANDMOTHER, Scylla, WOULD NOT HAVE APPROVED OF!!! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/46 "2015-09-23T18:40:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I have a 2009 TDI. There is no blue fluid. My car is also exempt from DC emissions tests, soooo… Not sure where that leaves me even if your state/region doesn’t do inspection tests, they can still move to deny registration renewals to known non-compliant cars. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/47 "2015-09-23T19:54:59Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > even if your state/region doesn’t do inspection tests, they can still move to deny registration renewals to known non-compliant cars. :mad: I will be curious to see if VW owners get a harder time from various DMVs than do these jackass “rolling coal” pickup trucks. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/48 "2015-09-23T22:27:58Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Well you’re the one who asked. … and you think that means I’ll be happy with any answer even if completely objectively false? What planet are you from? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/49 "2015-09-23T23:21:13Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > 1/ it isn’t state owned The state of Lower Saxony still holds 20% of Volkswagen voting rights, and until recently (2013) the corporate bylaws were such that the state could veto any major changes. Some of these rights were watered down in a 2013 EU ruling, but not all of them, and the German government still enjoys a few special privileges when it comes to control of VW. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/50 "2015-09-23T23:50:41Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Let’s throw in a little hate for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It was illegal to circumvent the copy protection to look at the code, so this had to be figured out by manual sleuthing. Let people see the code for the item they OWN, maybe this is found out by 2011. But no, we can’t see the code (legally) in the items we buy, and are just left to assume that the manufacturers have our best interest at heart. Manufacturers like [Sony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal). Wowzer. Fuck Sony and also Fuck Sony. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/51 "2015-09-23T23:59:43Z")
I can only imagine the number of class action lawsuits across the US and other countries. Over and above penalties from governments. They are totally screwed. Can’t see a reason why they shouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/52 "2015-09-24T01:35:58Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The state of Lower Saxony still holds 20% of Volkswagen voting rights, and until recently (2013) the corporate bylaws were such that the state could veto any major changes. Some of these rights were watered down in a 2013 EU ruling, but not all of them, and the German government still enjoys a few special privileges when it comes to control of VW. VW is a bit special, and while very different than Ford, kind of like Ford in how its voting rights work. First VW is a subsidiary of VW AG, and it’s this group that’s owned by the Niedersachsen government. Controlling interest (greater than 50%), though, belongs to Porsche SE, which is itself a 100% family-owned company (thus my allusion to Ford’s structure). Previously the [Volkswagen Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Law) _did_ give Niedersachsen huge leverage over the families’ voting rights and the rights of the other proxy voters, but this is no longer the case, and when it was the case it was only applied for “major decisions” rather than day to day business. To compare even pre-2007 VW to a SOE is a bit of hyperbole, I imagine, because the right to veto is not at all the same as the right to enact. The more likely scenario is that VW AG is “too big to fail,” not unlike the intervention of Bush and Obama to rescue GM and Chrysler in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/53 "2015-09-24T04:11:39Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > To compare even pre-2007 VW to a SOE is a bit of hyperbole, I imagine, because the right to veto is not at all the same as the right to enact. The more likely scenario is that VW AG is “too big to fail,” not unlike the intervention of Bush and Obama to rescue GM and Chrysler in the USA. All true, although the wiki article on SOEs does include VW in the list (with the acknowledgement that the definitions are vague and that there’s no exact threshold). I suppose the main value of the veto power was to prevent VW from moving their headquarters. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/54 "2015-09-24T09:42:30Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > VW is a bit special, and while very different than Ford, kind of like Ford in how its voting rights work. > > First VW is a subsidiary of VW AG, and it’s this group that’s owned by the Niedersachsen government. Controlling interest (greater than 50%), though, belongs to Porsche SE, which is itself a 100% family-owned company (thus my allusion to Ford’s structure). > > Previously the [Volkswagen Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Law) _did_ give Niedersachsen huge leverage over the families’ voting rights and the rights of the other proxy voters, but this is no longer the case, and when it was the case it was only applied for “major decisions” rather than day to day business. > > To compare even pre-2007 VW to a SOE is a bit of hyperbole, I imagine, because the right to veto is not at all the same as the right to enact. The more likely scenario is that VW AG is “too big to fail,” not unlike the intervention of Bush and Obama to rescue GM and Chrysler in the USA. Even if you don’t accept that VW is a de facto too big to fail SOE, add in the stake owned by Qatar. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/55 "2015-09-24T16:40:23Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The state of Lower Saxony still holds 20% of Volkswagen voting rights, and until recently (2013) the corporate bylaws were such that the state could veto any major changes. Some of these rights were watered down in a 2013 EU ruling, but not all of them, and the German government still enjoys a few special privileges when it comes to control of VW. Or as originally said: > [@Princhester](#): > > 1/ it isn’t state owned ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/56 "2015-09-24T20:38:54Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Or as originally said: The statement, flatly made, is false. No definition of “state-owned company” requires 100% ownership by the state; only that the state holds a stake in the company that goes beyond normal stock ownership (as might be the cases if we were just talking about a sovereign fund investment). If you don’t like the Wikipedia list, [here](http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-finance/21648576-carmakers-patriarchal-chairman-undermines-its-chief-executive-family-feud) is an Eonomist article that calls Volkswagen a “hybrid” that includes a “state-owned enterprise” component. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/57 "2015-09-25T01:53:54Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The statement, flatly made, is false. No definition of “state-owned company” requires 100% ownership by the state; only that the state holds a stake in the company that goes beyond normal stock ownership (as might be the cases if we were just talking about a sovereign fund investment). > > If you don’t like the Wikipedia list, [here](http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-finance/21648576-carmakers-patriarchal-chairman-undermines-its-chief-executive-family-feud) is an Eonomist article that calls Volkswagen a “hybrid” that includes a “state-owned enterprise” component. Definitions and conceptions are where we’re running into trouble here. From the Wikipedia article, _“As a definitional issue, it is difficult to determine categorically what level of state ownership would qualify an entity to be considered as “state-owned”, since governments can also own regular stock, without implying any special interference.”_. I offer that when most people think “SOE” they think of a company that is primarily controlled by and whose profits primarily benefit the state, i.e., the government is the one, unique owner. Otherwise it’s fair to say that VW AG is a balthisar-owned enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/58 "2015-09-25T05:14:05Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No definition of “state-owned company” requires 100% ownership by the state; only that the state holds a stake in the company that goes beyond normal stock ownership (as might be the cases if we were just talking about a sovereign fund investment). > **[What Is a State-Owned Enterprise (SOE), and How Does It Work?](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/soe.asp)** > > A state-owned enterprise (SOE) can be either wholly or partially owned by a government and is typically earmarked to participate in commercial activities. > [@](#): > > DEFINITION of ‘State-Owned Enterprise - SOE’ > A legal entity that is created by the government in order to partake in commercial activities on the government’s behalf. A state-owned enterprise (SOE) can be either wholly or partially owned by a government and is typically earmarked to participate in commercial activities. > > BREAKING DOWN ‘State-Owned Enterprise - SOE’ > Also known as government-owned corporations (GOC),\*\* state-owned entities should not be confused with companies with stocks that are owned in part by a government body, since these companies are truly public corporations which happen to have a government entity as one of their shareholders.\*\* SOEs are common across the globe, including in the U.S where mortgage companies Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are considered government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs). Lower Saxony owns 12.7%, compared to QIA’s 17% and the Porsche family’s 51%. You’d be as well arguing that any company with a government as a minor shareholder is state owned. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/59 "2015-09-25T06:13:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Lower Saxony owns 12.7%, compared to QIA’s 17% and the Porsche family’s 51%. You’d be as well arguing that any company with a government as a minor shareholder is state owned. Lower Saxony’s ownership stake entitles them to _more_ than what they’d have by simply owning 12.7% of the stock. They get 20% of the voting rights. Ordinary private shareholders get _fewer_ votes than their proportional financial stake. Normally, this would still count as an ordinary minority stake. But Volkswagen still enjoys the unique position where major decisions require an 80% vote. This is inscribed in German law and exists for the sole purpose of giving Lower Saxony special influence over Volkswagen. In contrast, Qatar’s stake only gives them 17% of the voting rights. This does not exceed the 20% veto threshold and means Qatar has no absolute control over major decisions. That Porsche holds a majority interest does not mean that VW cannot also be an SOE. Complicated setups like this one do not easily fit into a single pigeonhole. **Balthisar** ’s comment that this is definitional issue is well-noted. I’ll certainly acknowledge that an argument can be made that VW should not be called an SOE. But the statement should be qualified, and to state flatly that it is not an SOE is misleading, given that the German government still enjoys special privileges over VW’s internal affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216/60 "2015-09-25T13:32:27Z")
The Porsche/Piech stake is now only 31.5%, though I expect they’ll be picking up a bigger holding on the cheap with the share price so low. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vw-bugging-you/732216.md?page=4)