# Wachowski brothers - plagiarisers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992 "2004-12-09T20:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/41 "2004-12-10T23:39:50Z")
Thanks for that quote **Larry Mudd** I have just ordered a selection of short stories from Amazon to read more of “The Machine Stops”. The two pages visable of “The Third Eye” makes the law suit sound scurrilous ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/42 "2004-12-11T01:00:51Z")
That’s nothing! Even as a young child I’ve had bouts of “existence panic” where I suddenly think: “Say, why do I have self-awareness anyway? What if reality was just some sort of massive illusion?” The Siblings must have read my mind and stolen my brainwaves! :eek: :wally ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/43 "2004-12-11T06:58:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I would say the second and third _Matrix_ movies are probably inferior to _Overdrawn at the Memory Bank_. Holy shit-that’s a hell of a lot of suck. ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/44 "2004-12-11T07:41:36Z")
From [http://www.daghettotymz.com/matrix/sophiaupdate.html:](http://www.daghettotymz.com/matrix/sophiaupdate.html:) > [@](#): > > [Sophia] told me she is close to victory and realized she could really put a ‘nail in the coffin’ if she had her handz on one key piece of evidence… the original version of The Matrix that aired March 31, 1999… She informed me there are various scenes that are different from the later released version(s) which will enable you to know you have the original release: > -In the beginning of the movie, there’s an intro that scrolls up the screen just like in the movie Star Wars that layz out the plot. It speaks of a nuclear war that happened in the year 2110AD, where humanz were now used as fuel for the machines like batteries > -In the part where Neo barters for a stack of programz for programz of his. No money was exchanged like in the edited release(s) > -The girl in the beginning who came over Neo’s had a rabbit on her arm. In the edited version(s), she’s seen with the rabbit on her back shoulderblade I saw the film opening day and went on to see it three or four more times in the theaters. Never once did I see any of these scenes. This girl’s off her rocker. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/45 "2004-12-11T07:47:31Z")
> [@Skott](#): > > From [http://www.daghettotymz.com/matrix/sophiaupdate.html:](http://www.daghettotymz.com/matrix/sophiaupdate.html:) > > I saw the film opening day and went on to see it three or four more times in the theaters. Never once did I see any of these scenes. This girl’s off her rocker. Sophia’z definitely got zome zcrewz looze. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/46 "2004-12-11T08:25:37Z")
Some of you seem to be arguing that there was \*no need \* to plagerize her story, for most of the ideas are common to sci-fi and have been for many years. and you would seem to be right. But that is not the point. It doesn’t matter if they needed to use the work or not. It only matters if they _did_ use the work or not. > [@](#): > > According to court documentation, an FBI investigation discovered that more than thirty minutes had been edited from the original film, in attempt to avoid penalties for copyright infringement. The investigation also stated that “credible witnesses employed at Warner Brothers came forward, claiming that the executives and lawyers had full knowledge that the work in question did not belong to the Wachowski Brothers.” These witnesses claimed to have seen Stewart’s original work and that it had been “ **often used during preparation of the motion pictures**.” This may be bullshit in a college paper. But if she can actually any of the above, she’s got a big payday coming. ---
**Author:** ![Mikahw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mikahw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikahw)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/47 "2004-12-11T09:00:43Z")
The Matrix aired on March 31, 1999? Damn, shouldn’t have spent my money in the theater. (then again, it was probably in fullscreen and heavily edited) 😛 > [@](#): > > enable you to know you have the original release Hwa? Does that mean she expects people to own 35mm film, or that there were actually DVDs that had those supposed scenes? Seems odd that a DVD released six months later would have the scenes on it, when the 35mm version must have disappeared so fast that nobody has ever seen it. Then again, since it isn’t her talking directly, maybe the person talking got some facts wrong? Oh, and I should have added some extraneous "z"s in that post, but I didn’t really see a good place for them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/48 "2004-12-11T09:15:53Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Some of you seem to be arguing that there was \*no need \* to plagerize her story, for most of the ideas are common to sci-fi and have been for many years. and you would seem to be right. But that is not the point. > > It doesn’t matter if they needed to use the work or not. It only matters if they _did_ use the work or not. The point was that because these ideas are so commonplace, they wouldn’t have needed to steal them all from one source. It makes the theft seem less likely, as do the nonsensical claims. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/49 "2004-12-11T10:06:50Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > This may be bullshit in a college paper. But if she can actually any of the above, she’s got a big payday coming. I’m inclined to think it _is_ bullshit, and made up out of whole cloth. (Maybe not maliciously – maybe she really believes that the FBI investigated and determined that her scribblings were consulted during the process.) It’s interesting that, if she has these provocative documents referred to in the article, she hasn’t included them in her rivetting compendium of “[authentic court dociments](http://www.daghettotymz.com/matrix/Sophiadoc.pdf),” (PDF) which consists of some incoherent racist ranting, a press release, an e-mail from Fox saying she has no case against them because they’re only a distributor for foreign markets, a copyright registry notice, a list of characters that bear no resemblance at all to any characters in _The Matrix_, photostats of the e-mails and message-board postings quoted above, and a bill from an attorney for attempting to serve the W. bros with a summons. Wow! All those “authentic court documents” and she accidentally left out anything that indicates any connection between her story and _The Matrix_, apart from blind assertions that she “wrote” the Matrix, with absolutely no supporting evidence. Add to this the sheer lunacy that comes out of her mouth. Here’s a [30MB wav file of a “radio” interview.](http://daghettotymz.com/matrix/SophiaStewart1.WAV). Representative tidbits: > [@](#): > > Q) What made you choose to call it “The Third Eye?” > > A) The eye is the Eye of Horus. It sees all, knows all, and it sits upon the back of the dollar from the pyramids. A lot of scholars know that this is the eye of Horus, and that’s why it’s called “The Third Eye.” I’m just letting you know that I’m speaking about Revelations. > > Q) Explain the similarities… not even the similarities, the blatant plagiarism in the _Matrix_ movies. > > A) Well, I wrote the first _Matrix_, I did not write the other two _Matrix_, but they do have to pay me for those since they released them. But, like I’m going to tell you, what they did is they took my epic, I wrote a nine-chapter epic, and I had colossal characters, and I had an introduction like _Star Wars_ and it was just to tell the opposite of George Lucas’ work- My point of view is that of Christ and his is that of Satan. That’s why it’s a big grossing series the same as _Star Wars_, it’s on that level because of the point of view of the people we’re talking about in our movies. They just took my work and made a script out of it, they stole my storyline, they stole my concept, they stole all of my characters because every character in _The Matrix_ 1 has been identified as my work by the FBI. There was a _Star Wars_ introduction, just like _Star Wars_, where the words go up, it opens up in 2110, explaining the plot, there had been a nuclear war and the people inside of the Matrix had no idea what had been done on the outside of the Matrix… They just took my work and adapted it for the screen. It’s just like if John Grisham writes a book, and you adapt it for the screen, well that’s his work. > > Q) Have you ever heard of Octavia Butler? > > A) No, I’ve never heard of her. […] I wanted to tell you that I don’t have to read any books, because like I told you before, in my evolutions of consciousness, my consciousness has evolved, way back in the eighties, and I tap into universal knowledge. I don’t have to read anyone. None of us have to read anyone. The knowledge that they’re putting in those books are available through the universal source. […] We need not read anything. Everything has been done. Everything that is ever written or ever done is in Revelations. Every book, every self-help book, every positive book, every kind of medicine, natural, homeopathic, comes from Revelations. Nothing has ever been done or said, or will ever be done or said, it’s all in Revelations. Believe me, I am telling you the truth. We need not read anyone. In short, she’s totally delusional. If a student reporter took her word that the FBI said such and such, they’re taking the word of someone who says an awful lot of crazy shit without having (or feeling the need for) any kind of support. Yeah, I believe there are FBI documents that say the W. Bros consulted her story all throughout the process of creating _The Matrix_. They’re right next to the original release of _The Matrix_ that opens up with a _Star Wars_ text scroll. The one that was intended to counter George Lucas’ Satanic point of view, and has been covered up by the “Massa Media.” The one that they cut the “Just like _Star Wars_” scroll out of, to avoid having to pay Sophia Stewart royalties. Bwahahahaha. And the Archangel Gabriel flies out of my butt. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/50 "2004-12-11T12:05:29Z")
S.F. novelist Jack Chalker feels that there was a rip-off too. And with at least somewhat more cause (ie-more than the screwball described in the OP has which is none at all). In his “Wonderland Gambit” series, there’s people trapped in a VR world who don’t _know_ they’re trapped in a VR world, lots of “Alice in Wonderland” references, etc.–the opening bits of both are _very_ similar–our computer engineer hero is warned by a mysterious female that he’s in great danger and that everything he knows is false. However, the plots completely diverge beyond that (IE: Chalker doesn’t have the brain-damaged “Humans as Duracells” plot point. Also Chalker has layer upon layer of VR worlds–you’re never quite sure what’s real until the very end.) but some of the themes and motifs 9and the opening) are very similar. Here’s what[Chalker has to say](http://www.jackchalker.com/oldnews.html) (note: I don’t agree with him–having some elements in common != ripping off) > [@](#): > > Been getting some mail about the motion picture The Matrix noting just how many elements of it were lifted almost verbatim from The Wonderland Gambit. It’s true, and they stole them and that’s why I got nothing, no credits, no money, from it. Were I in better shape financially it would be worth going after them, but, alas, unless you know a contingency lawyer with Hollywood experience willing to take it on it’s just going to have to be another rip-off that Hollywood is famous for. And if they don’t like me saying that, then let them sue me! Oh—that goes for The Thirteenth Floor, too, but nobody saw that one and at least they credited the late Dan Gallouye for the heart of it… Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/51 "2004-12-11T18:15:08Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > S.F. novelist Jack Chalker feels that there was a rip-off too. And with at least somewhat more cause (ie-more than the screwball described in the OP has which is none at all). > > In his “Wonderland Gambit” series, there’s people trapped in a VR world who don’t _know_ they’re trapped in a VR world, lots of “Alice in Wonderland” references, etc.–the opening bits of both are _very_ similar–our computer engineer hero is warned by a mysterious female that he’s in great danger and that everything he knows is false. > > However, the plots completely diverge beyond that (IE: Chalker doesn’t have the brain-damaged “Humans as Duracells” plot point. Also Chalker has layer upon layer of VR worlds–you’re never quite sure what’s real until the very end.) but some of the themes and motifs 9and the opening) are very similar. > > Here’s what[Chalker has to say](http://www.jackchalker.com/oldnews.html) (note: I don’t agree with him–having some elements in common != ripping off) > > Fenris Come on Fenris, you’re missing the most obvious link here. Chalker has written two novels with dominant transgender themes (_Downtiming the Night Side_ and _The Identity Matrix_). Clearly the man’s work has had some profound influence on the Wachowskis. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/52 "2004-12-11T20:11:06Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Yeah, I believe there are FBI documents that say the W. Bros consulted her story all throughout the process of creating _The Matrix_. They’re right next to the original release of _The Matrix_ that opens up with a _Star Wars_ text scroll. The one that was intended to counter George Lucas’ Satanic point of view, and has been covered up by the “Massa Media.” The one that they cut the “Just like _Star Wars_” scroll out of, to avoid having to pay Sophia Stewart royalties. > > Bwahahahaha. And the Archangel Gabriel flies out of my butt. But then, by her logic, isn’t she admitting to plagarizing _Star Wars_? Damn. She makes L. Ron Hubbard look sane and rational. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/53 "2004-12-11T21:42:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But then, by her logic, isn’t she admitting to plagarizing _Star Wars_? The funny thing is even if she intended to plagiarize _Star Wars_, she didn’t, because she’s so nucking futs that she thinks Lucas’ story is cryptically about all the cloud-cuckoo-land stuff that she’s obsessed with- namely a Zionist conspiracy to force people to submit to the Mark of the Beast by accepting a Social Security number. She thinks that her story is connected to _Star Wars_ through a commonality that exists only in her confused imagination. She has that special sight that psychopaths have of “seeing” how everything relates to her delusional beliefs, while having no ability to see what she’s actually looking at. This is how she is able to explain that she named her story after a Buddhist concept, because it’s all about Egyptian mythology, well in name, anyway, except she demonstrates that she doesn’t have _any_ idea about what the Eye of Horus represents, and anyway, she really called it _The Third Eye_ so that we’d know she was talking about the Apocalypse of John. Never mind that by _no_ amount of tortured logic can you connect the idea of “The Third Eye” with Revelations, children. She’s able to make these connections between totally unrelated concepts because she’s evolved way beyond referring to silly old books, she gets it all straight from the “universal source” – her ass. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/54 "2004-12-11T22:22:50Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > Come on Fenris, you’re missing the most obvious link here. Chalker has written two novels with dominant transgender themes Two? Heh…I’d have to think hard to find four that _didn’t_ have transgender themes–Well World had characters turned into big-boobed mindless nymphos at one point, the whole point of the Soul Riders stuff was sexual roles and gender identity (vis-a-vis people getting turned into mindless, big-boobed nymphos), the Dancing Gods stuff had people getting turned into mindless, big-boobed nymphos…lessee…I _think_ the Rings of the Master stuff had at least one person who got transformed into a mindless, big boobed nympho. Um…lessee–one of the characters in the Lords of the Diamond stuff got turned into a woman, and I _think_ another got turned into a mindless, big-boobed nympho. I don’t think anyone in _And The Devil Will Drag You Under_ did, and there was that one non SF novel he did, plus he did a booklet that was an autobiography of Scrooge McDuck–that didn’t have any transformations into mindless big-boobed nymphos. But if you asked me to find a fourth, I’d be stumped. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/55 "2004-12-12T22:44:14Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The funny thing is even if she intended to plagiarize _Star Wars_, she didn’t, because she’s so nucking futs that she thinks Lucas’ story is cryptically about all the cloud-cuckoo-land stuff that she’s obsessed with- namely a Zionist conspiracy to force people to submit to the Mark of the Beast by accepting a Social Security number. She thinks that her story is connected to _Star Wars_ through a commonality that exists only in her confused imagination. > > She has that special sight that psychopaths have of “seeing” how everything relates to her delusional beliefs, while having no ability to see what she’s actually looking at. This is how she is able to explain that she named her story after a Buddhist concept, because it’s all about Egyptian mythology, well in name, anyway, except she demonstrates that she doesn’t have _any_ idea about what the Eye of Horus represents, and anyway, she really called it _The Third Eye_ so that we’d know she was talking about the Apocalypse of John. Never mind that by _no_ amount of tortured logic can you connect the idea of “The Third Eye” with Revelations, children. > > She’s able to make these connections between totally unrelated concepts because she’s evolved way beyond referring to silly old books, she gets it all straight from the “universal source” – her ass. Well, it’s pretty obvious that she’s crazier than a shithouse rat, no doubt. (Although this is comedy GOLD. Am I the only one who finds these kinds of things hilarious?). However, in her tortured logic, shouldn’t she at least see that if the Matrix is enough of a rip-off of her work that she can sue, then you’d think she’d at least say that Lucas should then sue her. But then, I guess that’s why they call 'em crazy. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/56 "2004-12-13T00:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=Fenris] Two? Heh…I’d have to think hard to find four that _didn’t_ have transgender themes–Well World had characters turned into big-boobed mindless nymphos at one point, the whole point of the Soul Riders stuff was sexual roles and gender identity (vis-a-vis people getting turned into mindless, big-boobed nymphos), the Dancing Gods stuff had people getting turned into mindless, big-boobed nymphos…lessee…I _think_ the Rings of the Master stuff had at least one person who got transformed into a mindless, big boobed nympho. Um…lessee–one of the characters in the Lords of the Diamond stuff got turned into a woman, and I _think_ another got turned into a mindless, big-boobed nympho. /QUOTE] And to think I misspent my adolescence pawing through the Gor books for the hot stuff. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/57 "2004-12-13T00:24:07Z")
Rats, sorry about screwing up the coding on that post, quoting Fenris. Off to write “preview is my friend” 100 times. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/58 "2004-12-13T04:34:26Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > She’s able to make these connections between totally unrelated concepts because she’s evolved way beyond referring to silly old books, she gets it all straight from the “universal source” – her ass. She sounds like a theosphosist, but Madam Blatvatsky was actually rather creative. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/59 "2004-12-13T16:39:37Z")
I don’t know why everyone acuses Chalker of an obsession with transgenderism. I mean, there’s none of that at all in fully _two_ of the Four Lords of the Diamond books. (Unless I’m forgetting something from Charon, which I might be.) –Cliffy P.S. This isn’t to suggest I’m not a big Chalker fan, BTW, 'cuz I am. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992/60 "2004-12-13T16:57:00Z")
That dude is going to make [one ugly chick.](http://edition.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9903/31/matrix/larry.wachowski.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wachowski-brothers-plagiarisers/278992.md?page=2)