Waco and the authorities

dhanson wrote:

Oh yeah, I forgot to clarify:

My survivalist friend claims that this was because the ATF agents had gotten some of their guys inside the attic (or top floor) of the compound, and THOSE agents panicked when they heard someone stomping around up on the roof above them.

BTW, this same guy has now stockpiled a 7 year supply of food and a couple thousand gallons of propane for heat and power. The only reason he hasn’t built a fallout shelter yet (!) is because he doesn’t have the money for it right now.

I’m not flying fast, just orbiting low.

[[So there was this documentary on Comedy Central or ESPN, where they showed Clinton ordering the Army to fire on the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge. (Remember that the Weaver family consists entirely of little girls and elderly civil rights workers.) Clinton says to this Army guy, “Kill them all cause I like blood ‘n’ Gore!” and the Army guy says, “Okay!” ]] Boris (tongue firmly in cheek)
Just FTR, the Weaver standoff in Idaho happened under the Bush administration.

The FBI taped all of their negoiations with “The Master”. Now, I have not personally listened to these tapes, but I did hear an interview with one of the negoiators, and he stated that Koresh frequently would quote scriptures that justified his molestation of minor children.

Not that it matters anyway. It’s over, and all of this is pure politics.


Tracer said:

No, no, no. You missed the real conspiracy. The woman I mentioned earlier said the ATF agents who were killed had guarded Clinton at one point when he had picked up women (this was way before Monica) and so Clinton needed to get rid of them. So he had them assigned to the raid and then other ATF agents killed them.

***David B: {{No, no, no. You missed the real conspiracy. The woman I mentioned earlier said the ATF agents
who were killed had guarded Clinton at one point when he had picked up women (this was way before Monica) and so Clinton needed to get rid of them. So he had them assigned to the raid and then other ATF agents killed them.}}

I’m surprised he didn’t have the nerve gas used on them–that’d be a fitting punishment for ATF agents impersonating Secret Service personnel.

You should have told her the whole mess was an attempt by the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy to make Clinton look bad, just to see if she’d froth at the mouth.

Rich Barr
AOL Instant Messenger: Hrttannl

I don’t know about the type of tear gas used by civilian authorities, but the military’s CS gas isn’t a gas at all; it’s a very fine powder, dispersed by oxidation with a reactant. The idea that at certain concentrations it becomes combustible (much like a carbon-based powder such a flour) is ludicrous.

And, according to the 54-series MOS types I knew in the Army, long exposure (5 to 15 minutes, depending on concentration) to high concentrations of military-style CS can cause respiratory distress, leading to pulmonary seizures and cardiac arrest. I don’t know the ppm levels necessary to induce these conditions, though.

In 8 years of military service, I never once heard of anything like that happening around a tear-gas teating-facility (where soldiers learn the basics of NBC safety and warfare, masking and protecting oneself from exposure to chemical agents), although there were always medics on-hand in case anything went wrong and some soldier needed medical assistance.

<FONT COLOR=“BLUE”>"…'ware the drake, for doth he slumber ever with one eye open."</FONT>

Have you ever seen tear gas fired into a closed structure containing small children and infants and elderly people, then had them remain in there for an hour or so?

Why is it ludicrous that the CS powder would be combustible? most materials will combust when broken into a fine enough powder and surrounded by oxidant. It might not explode, but it might act as a transmission agent to carry fire from one area to another faster than air. That’s all that was ever claimed.

I did a bit more research into CS this afternoon. It turns out that powder is only one form of distribution. It can also be distributed as an aerosol and several other forms.

Also, CS isn’t as harmless as you make out. It was originally designed for use outdoors for breaking riots and things. There are 40 recorded deaths, mostly of children, when CS was used indoors in the Middle East.

Also, if you burn CS it can release hydrogen cyanide and/or hydrogen chloride, which is deadly.

Here is a pretty decent report on CS gas at Waco:

CS Gas and Waco

Big Iron said:

[q]Just FTR, the Weaver standoff in Idaho happened under the Bush

Yes I suppose it’s important to point that out. A lot of people do seem to think Ruby Ridge happened during the Clinton years, and I was poking fun at this misconception in my post.

Just didn’t want you to think that I thought that Ruby Ridge (aka Waco Ridge!) happened after January 1993, or that Clinton makes puns on his Vice President’s last name, or any other of that bulloney. Although, sometimes I wish I had a few anti-noise missiles.


I was merely stating that the military-style CS dispersed from a 40mm grenade fired from a grenade launcher was not likely to combust.
As it is alleged that several military-style 40mm CS shells were found in the debris, I thought I would try to dispel some of the confusion; I have no experience with other delivery systems, especially those employed by law enforcement.

Considering the CS used in most military gas-testing chambers is about the size, shape and color of a urinal puck, and is burned to be activated, I find it hard to believe that the Waco fire may have been caused by the (alleged) military-style 40mm CS grenades.

As far as other styles of canisters and dispersion systems are concerned, I cannot say.

<FONT COLOR=“BLUE”>"…'ware the drake, for doth he slumber ever with one eye open."</FONT>

I never claimed that the CS started the fire, just that the presence of it may have helped the fire spread. The web page I referenced also points out that the military CS canisters use Methylene Chloride as a solvent, which definitely is flammable when aerosol (it’s also deadly if you inhale enough. One of the reasons the stuff isn’t normally used indoors is that the Methylene Chloride disperses very rapidly outdoors, but may build to dangerous levels in an enclosed space.)

Military info is not my forte so I will pose a couple of questions:

  1. Why is Delta Force a “secret” (especially when everybody seems to know about it)?

  2. Why were they at Waco. I mean, you have a bunch of women and children, do you need Delta Force? Seems to me like the FBI was overkill.

Mr. Z.

I think Delta Force is secret in the sense that their operations and methods are kept quiet so the terrorists will not know what to expect. I suppose they are a little like the CIA and the Secret Service in this regard: many people claim to know “exactly” how these organizations work, which is pretty easy to do since nobody in those orgs can really prove them wrong.

They are also like the CIA and the Secret Service in that secrecy raises the same old questions about accountability. The dilemma: Certain military operations are very difficult, if not impossible, if revealed to enemies numbering in the thousands. Same secret operations can be terribly abused if kept secret from the public, numbering in the millions.

If I had a solution to this dilemma, I’d probably be famous and possibly be the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Delta Force was at Waco to act as observers. I’m not sure who was supposed to be training whom (law enforcement or Army). In theory, Delta can learn a lot by watching hostage rescue / counterterrorism / SWAT operations even when they can’t legally intervene. The questions now being raised are, did they intervene, illegally but making use of aforementioned secrecy to skirt the posse comitatus laws? If they did I hope somebody gets in big trouble; I don’t have anything against Delta, but I don’t like the idea of the military being used for law enforcement. Ditto for the Navy doing anti-drug operations.

P.S. I don’t really know if bringning in the FBI was overkill, since I frankly can’t sort out what the Feds really believed was going on inside the compound. I mean, if they really believed the Davidians were megaterrorists capable of overthrowing world civilization, I guess the FBI would called-for, but I don’t think they really believed that.

I hate when people act like they want to know something but won’t even listen to or research any evidence that is contrary to what they already believe. I remember how I felt when all this 1st started and now I am ashamed of it. I remember thinking how I wish the’d go in there and get it over with. I told myself “Wy if that was me they’d kick in the doors and shoot me if I resisted arrest. And they’d be right to do so, I shouldn’t resist if I have nothing to hide”. After they did go in I kinda felt guilty. I felt like presure from people like me contibuted to them going in. I should have got the facts before forming any opinion as to how they should have handled it. If they had no business being there in the first place then NO, they shouldn’t go in. I guess it was blind faith on my behave that the gov’mnt would do the right thing and media would accurately and openly report what was going on. I didn’t know that Korech had been fully cooperating with the shariff and had been to town several times that week and had shown them the permits for every weapon except 2 or 3 and had told the shariff he could bring them ( the 2 or 3 he couldn’t locate the pirmits for) to town or the shariff was welcome to come get them. The ATF Showed up and the shariff told them he pretty much had it under control but they insisted on taking over. I watched what the networks said and I seen a very informative video on PBS of all places. And the rest of the videos aired on CBN and TBN ( christian networks ) and I have researched it on the web. The show on PBS influenced my opinions the most.
It was very clear and showed the same footage the networks shown but uncut.
It showed four atf agents climbing a ladder. the 1st goes across the roof and into a window and looks around then panics and shoots back out the window at his buddys ! ( I know it sounds crazy but you can see it as plain as day ) The Networks cut out this guy going in the window ( Why in the hell did these people I trusted to bring me the news cut that rather important part?) And the video staights they had 3 choices of tear gas and of those three the one they chose is the most flammable.
Now if I’m sitting here holding my kids in one arm and a candle in the other ( becuase you’ve cut my electricity off ) And you pump the most flammable tear gas you have
into the building, did you start the fire ? No. I lit the candle. Did you cause the place to burn rapidly ? YES. And if you fire shots into the last viable exit and kill 18 people
before they can escape then I’d say you’ve broken a law or two and need to be punished. Should some well trained solder go out and blow up a building and kill 168 people that had very little or nothing to do with it? Hell no. If that soldier wants to side step an aparently corrupt system
and make sure something is done he needs to improve his aim and find out where the bastards that did it live.
And we all need to search out the truth and not trust the government
or news to bring it to us. And not demand action until we know the truth about whats going on. We have the right to bare arms and only idiots
our willing to give up that right and
leave our fate to whom ever we put into office based soley on what we hear from a profit driven media.
They don’t want to go against what armed voters want, lets keep it that way. Do I think the gov’mnts evil or bad ? I doubt it. Theres good and bad everywhere, i just want to keep em honest and make sure the safegaurds against a gov’mnt not ran by the people stay in the constitution. I’m just afraid maybe that’s all Korech wanted too. I hope he was a bad guy now. I’d hate for all this to have taken place and him not be.


There is no Constitutional right to bare arms! Ban tank tops and t-shirts!

Okay, maybe there is a collective right to bare arms, but that only applies to the National Guardsmen, and even then, tube tops are OUT.

Am I being funny or am I just making people madder?

Neither. :slight_smile:

Under the Second Amendment, I most certainly do have the right to bare arms. You’ll take that right away from me only when you rip the tee shirt from my cold, dead body.

Tee shirts don’t kill people…unless you twist 'em into a rope and strangle somebody with 'em.

Rich Barr
AOL Instant Messenger: Hrttannl

Go rent “Waco, the rules of engagment” Maybe you guys will get a laugh out of it.