# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/1 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")
Rachel Maddow reports that: 1. The middle school that was destroyed was within 1000 feet of the fertilizer plant that blew up. Lucky the explosion happened at 6:30 pm or there might be a lot of little bodies under the rubble. Hey, zoning is apparently not a thing in West, Texas. 2. The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features. They had self-reported to their regulators that “there was no danger.” (Remember, it was fertilizer that served as the basis for the bomb that blew up the Murtagh building in Oklahoma City). No danger. And the Texas regulators let it slide. This is what small government advocates are all about. This is what deregulation is all about: deregulated economies blow up, deregulated industrial facilities blow up, because it’s cheaper not to address safety concerns, or to limit profits in the name of fiscal sanity. You CANNOT trust businesses and corporations to do the right thing absent tough oversight. Self-reporting is just another name for lying. And the end result is KABOOM!!! Remember that when next you hear conservatives and libertarians defaming government oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/2 "2013-04-19T03:56:04Z")
As to #1, what does deregulation (or zoning, for that matter) have to do with the government’s decision where to place a public school? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/3 "2013-04-19T04:06:50Z")
Can we wait until we find out what caused the blast, what safety practices might not have been followed, etc. before we start to lay the blame? The current reporting on safety: > **[West Fertilizer was pillar of community](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/west-fertilizer-had-few-violations-was-pillar-community-1C9509603)** > [@](#): > > In 2006, the Environmental Protection Agency fined the company $2,300 for failing to update its risk management plan in a timely manner. It had been due in 2004. The EPA said it had poor employee training records, failed to document hazards and didn’t have a written maintenance program. > > The EPA said the company corrected the deficiencies and filed an updated plan in 2011. It said it now complies with EPA regulations. > > The company’s 2011 safety plan said the facility posed no fire or explosive risk, according to the Dallas Morning News. Even if there were a 10-minute release of ammonia, the worst-envisioned scenario, no injuries could be expected. > > The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality said the facility has been subject to routine oversight and complaint-driven investigations, but no major problems were found besides the missing permit in 2006. It had issued permits for two 12,000-gallon anhydrous ammonia storage tanks and for the material loading and storage operations of dry fertilizer materials. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/4 "2013-04-19T04:08:24Z")
And West apparently does have a zoning ordinance and map. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/5 "2013-04-19T04:15:02Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As to #1, what does deregulation (or zoning, for that matter) have to do with the government’s decision where to place a public school? Zoning is a form of regulation. you cannot put public schools next to nuclear waste dumps, and probably can’t put them next to fertilizer factories. I could be wrong about that, I hope not. True story: when I went to grade school in Iceland the Quonset huts the students studied in were next to an abandoned mine field. We were expressly forbidden to go there! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/6 "2013-04-19T04:43:01Z")
New York Times: > [@](#): > > The plant, the West Chemical and Fertilizer Company, which is owned by Adair Grain Inc., had only nine employees… > > Zak Covar, the executive director of the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, said the company had been in business since 1962 and was one of a number of small fertilizer companies across rural Texas. The company has “an average compliance history,” … > > Because it was built in 1962, the facility was grandfathered in to state regulations, Mr. Covar said. The company was supposed to get reauthorized in 2004, but failed to do so. Mr. Covar would not speculate on the reason. I understand that it’s not unusual for small players to have weaker policies. Also, grandfathering is consistently a regulatory challenge in the US. I’m not sure whether the middle school was constructed before or after 1962. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/7 "2013-04-19T04:49:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Zoning is a form of regulation. you cannot put public schools next to nuclear waste dumps, and probably can’t put them next to fertilizer factories. I could be wrong about that, I hope not. But nothing about the absence of zoning _requires_ that the government put the school next to the plant. To put it another way, if you think this government made a bad decision in where it placed its school, why do think it would have made a better decision about where to place its schools when drawing a zoning map? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/8 "2013-04-19T04:51:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Zoning is a form of regulation. you cannot put public schools next to nuclear waste dumps, and probably can’t put them next to fertilizer factories. I could be wrong about that, I hope not. > > True story: when I went to grade school in Iceland the Quonset huts the students studied in were next to an abandoned mine field. We were expressly forbidden to go there! I don’t think Iceland has ever fought a war – why would they have minefields? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/9 "2013-04-19T05:37:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think Iceland has ever fought a war – why would they have minefields? The school was on a US military base in Iceland – think DEW line. I do not know why they had a mine field. The base might have been built in WWII to protect Allied shipping initially, with some thought that the Nazis might make a ground assault? Or maybe just Cold War paranoia during the 50s? Iceland has a socialist government now and may have had one back then … might even have been fears of the natives getting restless … though that seems the most unlikely theory. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/10 "2013-04-19T05:40:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > But nothing about the absence of zoning _requires_ that the government put the school next to the plant. > > To put it another way, if you think this government made a bad decision in where it placed its school, why do think it would have made a better decision about where to place its schools when drawing a zoning map? I think the placement was bad irrelevant of whether it was based on a zoning map or not. Granted, fertilizer plants may have seemed less dangerous back in the sixties. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/11 "2013-04-19T06:13:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I think the placement was bad irrelevant of whether it was based on a zoning map or not. Granted, fertilizer plants may have seemed less dangerous back in the sixties. In 1947 we had the Texas City explosion where the detonation of ammonia nitrate caused the deaths of a little under 500 people with about 5,000 injured. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/12 "2013-04-19T06:14:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think Iceland has ever fought a war – why would they have minefields? Most likely a result of WWII as **Evil Captor** mentioned, at the beginning of the war Iceland was part of a union with Denmark and it was originally neutral during WWII, but Hitler invaded Denmark and the strategic location of Iceland guaranteed that it was going to be a battleground too. After the takeover of Denmark the Germans tried to control Iceland but the British controlled the seas and then invaded the island, the invasion met little to no opposition from the few Germans that attempted to control the island, Iceland remained “neutral” but Iceland did accept the de facto occupation by the allies. The British and then the Americans had bases in Iceland that were also protected with mine fields to prevent the Germans from attempting any landings like the British made early. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/13 "2013-04-19T07:21:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > But nothing about the absence of zoning _requires_ that the government put the school next to the plant… Well the lands probally cheaper, and there’d be less opposition from neighbors than in a residential area. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Most likely a result of WWII as **Evil Captor** mentioned, at the beginning of the war Iceland was part of a union with Denmark and it was originally neutral during WWII, but Hitler invaded Denmark and the strategic location of Iceland guaranteed that it was going to be a battleground too… Iceland was to Denmark as Canada was to the UK; independent countries sharing the same monarch and with the mother country carrying out foriegn relations. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/14 "2013-04-19T07:34:26Z")
It’s a similar story with compounding pharmacies. There have been a couple attempts to introduce regulations on the industry, including one by Ted Kennedy (among others) in 2007. The industry lobbied against it and it never even got to a vote. From [here](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/16/us-usa-health-meningitis-compounding-idUSBRE89F05Y20121016): > [@](#): > > It would have given the FDA authority to restrict when doctors could order injectable drugs from compounders, limit interstate distribution of compounded drugs, and establish requirements for sterile compounding. The fungal meningitis outbreak last fall killed 48 people in 23 states. It was traced to contaminated steroid injections produced at a compounding pharmacy near Boston. Regulations can go too far, but there are cases like this where they don’t go far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/15 "2013-04-19T08:57:51Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In 1947 we had the Texas City explosion where the detonation of ammonia nitrate caused the deaths of a little under 500 people with about 5,000 injured. Which as I recall was also partly a matter of improper safety precautions. The ship of AN that exploded was allowed to dock at a shorter, more convenient dock rather than the long one that was supposed to be used for potentially explosive cargo. This resulted in the explosion being far nearer and able to do far more damage. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/16 "2013-04-19T09:51:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I think the placement was bad irrelevant of whether it was based on a zoning map or not. Granted, fertilizer plants may have seemed less dangerous back in the sixties. What almost certainly happened was that the factory was well out of town and the town expanded to envelop it. This happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/17 "2013-04-19T10:36:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What almost certainly happened was that the factory was well out of town and the town expanded to envelop it. This happens all the time. There’s 2300 people in West. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/18 "2013-04-19T12:17:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which as I recall was also partly a matter of improper safety precautions. The ship of AN that exploded was allowed to dock at a shorter, more convenient dock rather than the long one that was supposed to be used for potentially explosive cargo. This resulted in the explosion being far nearer and able to do far more damage. The explosions of the two ships were so powerful that it’s extremely doubtful that docking a little further away would have made much difference. What’s generally reported is that improper firefighting techniques contributed to the initial massive explosion (i.e. trying to smother burning fertilizer with hot steam, which didn’t exactly cool things off). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/19 "2013-04-19T13:34:07Z")
Are you living in an alternative universe where there are no regulators? Both the EPA and the Texas Commision on Environmental Quality investigated this plant and found no problems. It still blew up. The regulations failed, so you blame it on lack of regulation? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/20 "2013-04-19T14:02:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features. They had self-reported to their regulators that “there was no danger.” (Remember, it was fertilizer that served as the basis for the bomb that blew up the Murtagh building in Oklahoma City). No danger. And the Texas regulators let it slide. Do you mind if I don’t trust you (or Saint Rachel) to have reported that correctly? Seems to me that, give we have all sorts of government regulations, that your trust in “government” is a tab naive. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=2)