# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/21 "2013-04-19T14:09:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Are you living in an alternative universe where there are no regulators? Both the EPA and the Texas Commision on Environmental Quality investigated this plant and found no problems. It still blew up. The regulations failed, so you blame it on lack of regulation? Welcome to **Evil Captor’s** world. When the government does something idiotic, it’s the fault of conservatives and libertarians and thus we have proof that big-government liberals are always right. I also join **John Mace** is requesting evidence that what Rachel Maddow said was anything more than her usual hokum. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/22 "2013-04-19T14:12:57Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Are you living in an alternative universe where there are no regulators? Both the EPA and the Texas Commision on Environmental Quality investigated this plant and found no problems. It still blew up. The regulations failed, so you blame it on lack of regulation? I blame it on the lack of enforcement of regulations. The company self-reported that “the worst case scenario is that of a ten minute release of ammonia gas which would injure no one.” Well, that was clearly completely wrong. And whenever companies self-report, there is constant pressure to under-report, because that means less safety precautions and that means less money spent. The companies will always go for the short-term saving on money because, as we have REPEATEDLY heard from our conservative and libertarian brethren, the ONLY responsibility a company has is to its stockholders. The rest of us can die in a fire, apparently. Or an explosion. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/23 "2013-04-19T14:15:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you mind if I don’t trust you (or Saint Rachel) to have reported that correctly? > > Seems to me that, give we have all sorts of government regulations, that your trust in “government” is a tab naive. I DON’T trust our current government, it’s a corporate oligarchy. I WISH we had an actual government that would enforce safety laws, but increasingly, we do not. Sure, feel free not to trust me, but Saint Rachel rarely does bad reporting. We’re not talking Faux News here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/24 "2013-04-19T14:21:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Welcome to **Evil Captor’s** world. When the government does something idiotic, it’s the fault of conservatives and libertarians and thus we have proof that big-government liberals are always right. > > I also join **John Mace** is requesting evidence that what Rachel Maddow said was anything more than her usual hokum. Fine, here’s a quote from a [CBS news report](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57580185/frantic-search-for-survivors-after-deadly-texas-fertilizer-plant-blast/). Primary source appears to be the Dallas Morning News: > [@](#): > > The Dallas Morning News reports that documents show West Fertilizer told the Environmental Protection Agency that it presented no risk of fire or explosion, despite having 54,000 pounds of anhydrous ammonia. > > According to the newspaper, an emergency planning report shows West Fertilizer stated “no” under the section asking about fire or explosion risks. The fertilizer plant indicated the worst case scenario would be a 10-minute release of ammonia gas that would not harm anyone. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/25 "2013-04-19T18:14:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Rachel Maddow reports that: > > 1. The middle school that was destroyed was within 1000 feet of the fertilizer plant that blew up. Lucky the explosion happened at 6:30 pm or there might be a lot of little bodies under the rubble. Hey, zoning is apparently not a thing in West, Texas. Is it actually uncommon for schools to be a quarter of a mile from something that is not a school? > [@](#): > > 1. The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features. They had self-reported to their regulators that “there was no danger.” (Remember, it was fertilizer that served as the basis for the bomb that blew up the Murtagh building in Oklahoma City). No danger. And the Texas regulators let it slide. The claim that they self-reported “no danger” does not mean anyone let anything “slide.” The plant would be been subject to a long list of safety regulations that would have been enforced as they are anywhere else. The fact that West Fertiziler wrote something on one form doesn’t prove the regulators overlooked it, ignored the risk, or even believed it. Unless Maddow has gone over a lot of documentation she doesn’t, to the best of my knowledge, have the qualifications to even understand, she’s just talking out of her ass. (You sort of toss your own credibility by sainting a TV talking head. Her job is to be interesting, not right.) That’s not to say there might not have been some shady goings-on here; frankly, there is absolutely no excuse for it. Someone failed spectacularly. Might I point out, however, that this is noteworthy _because it’s so rare._ Workplace safety regulations as they currently exist are in fact remarkably successful as opposed to the way things used to be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/26 "2013-04-19T18:19:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I DON’T trust our current government, it’s a corporate oligarchy. I WISH we had an actual government that would enforce safety laws, but increasingly, we do not. > > Sure, feel free not to trust me, but Saint Rachel rarely does bad reporting. We’re not talking Faux News here. “The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features.” One of you two is a bad reporter. If you were quoting her, she is. If not, it’s you. That is a meaningless statement. Which specific safety features, required by law, did they not have? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/27 "2013-04-19T18:24:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Are you living in an alternative universe where there are no regulators? Both the EPA and the Texas Commision on Environmental Quality investigated this plant and found no problems. It still blew up. The regulations failed, so you blame it on lack of regulation? [Their last OSHA visit was in 1985.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/texas-fertilizer-plant-ha_n_3113117.html) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/28 "2013-04-19T18:24:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Rachel Maddow reports that: > > 1. The middle school that was destroyed was within 1000 feet of the fertilizer plant that blew up. Lucky the explosion happened at 6:30 pm or there might be a lot of little bodies under the rubble. Hey, zoning is apparently not a thing in West, Texas. > > 2. The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features. They had self-reported to their regulators that “there was no danger.” (Remember, it was fertilizer that served as the basis for the bomb that blew up **the Murtagh building** in Oklahoma City). I better spoiler this; it’s in pretty bad taste, even eighteen years later. I wonder if, when the fertilizer bomb went off, the building said [“I’m gettin’ too old for this shit.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Murtaugh) **Murrah.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/29 "2013-04-19T18:40:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Seems to me that, give we have all sorts of government regulations, that your trust in “government” is a tab naive. Regulation is one thing and enforcement is another. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/30 "2013-04-19T18:46:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Is it actually uncommon for schools to be a quarter of a mile from something that is not a school? No, because everything that is not a school, is not a school. There were undoubtedly rocks and trees and birds and things one quarter mile from the school, and they were not schools. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > The claim that they self-reported “no danger” does not mean anyone let anything “slide.” The plant would be been subject to a long list of safety regulations that would have been enforced as they are anywhere else. The fact that West Fertiziler wrote something on one form doesn’t prove the regulators overlooked it, ignored the risk, or even believed it. Unless Maddow has gone over a lot of documentation she doesn’t, to the best of my knowledge, have the qualifications to even understand, she’s just talking out of her ass. (You sort of toss your own credibility by sainting a TV talking head. Her job is to be interesting, not right.) “No risk” and “54,000 pounds of anhydrous ammonia” are not terms that normally go together. And there’s that failure of West Fertilizer to get that permit in 2006 that got it cited. I do not believe it did not get that permit. > [@](#): > > That’s not to say there might not have been some shady goings-on here; frankly, there is absolutely no excuse for it. Someone failed spectacularly. Might I point out, however, that this is noteworthy _because it’s so rare._ Workplace safety regulations as they currently exist are in fact remarkably successful as opposed to the way things used to be. This is probably the sort of thing that once is too many of. I mean, the TV is nothing but coverage of the Boston bomber search, but this blast killed at least a dozen people at last report and injured about as many as the Boston bombers did … at current numbers. Betcha they rise. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/31 "2013-04-19T18:49:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features.” > > One of you two is a bad reporter. If you were quoting her, she is. If not, it’s you. That is a meaningless statement. Which specific safety features, required by law, did they not have? I’m not a bad reporter, I just didn’t include the basis for my assertions. Here’s a [USA Today report](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/18/waco-texas-plant-explosion/2092769/): > [@](#): > > The facility, which receives fertilizer by rail and distributes it to local farmers, declared in a risk-management plan filed with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in 2011 that it did not have sprinklers or other fire-safety measures in place because it was not handling flammable materials, the Associated Press reported. No sprinklers. Imagine that. Because, no danger of a fire. Really! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/32 "2013-04-19T19:00:30Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > True story: when I went to grade school in Iceland the Quonset huts the students studied in were next to an abandoned mine field. We were expressly forbidden to go there! Just curious: why would there be a mine field in Iceland? Who put down the mines? When? Who were they using the mines to defend against? ETA: I see this has already been addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/33 "2013-04-19T19:16:36Z")
It seems that the crucial thing here is skepticism. Skepticism of the claim that companies will never do anything wrong leads to regulations in the first place, and skepticism that companies will abide by regulations leads to enforcement. I’m interested in what came first - the plant of the school. But you don’t need specific zoning regulations to know that putting a school next to something that may blow up is a bad idea. Believing these clowns when they said the plant had no risk shows lack of skepticism (as well as stupidity.) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/34 "2013-04-19T20:59:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > No sprinklers. Imagine that. Because, no danger of a fire. Really! You need to remember that fire fighting techniques vary with chemical fires. Standard sprinklers are not a good idea for a fire involving anhydrous ammonia. [CDC Info on Anhydrous Ammonia](http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/EmergencyResponseCard_29750013.html) > [@](#): > > FIRE FIGHTING INFORMATION: > [ul] > [li]Ammonia is flammable.[/li][li]Fire will produce irritating, corrosive, and/or toxic gases.[/li][li] **Never direct water jet straight at liquid ammonia.** [/li][li]For small fires use dry chemical or carbon dioxide.[/li][li]For large fires use water spray, fog, or regular foam. Move containers from the fire area if possible to do so without risk to personnel. Do not get water inside containers. Damaged cylinders should be handled by a specialist only.[/li][li]For fire involving tanks, fight fire from a maximum distance or use unmanned hose holders or monitor nozzles. Cool containers with flooding quantities of water until well after fire is out. Do not direct water at source of leak or safety device; icing may occur. Withdraw immediately in case of rising sound from venting safety device or discoloration of tank. Always stay away from tanks engulfed in fire.[/li][li]Run-off from fire control may cause pollution.[/li][li]If the situation allows, control and properly dispose of run-off (effluent).[/ul][/li] Yes, anhydrous ammonia is flammable. It requires a [NFPA 704](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704) placard showing flammability category 1. That means it “…require[s] considerable preheating, under all ambient temperature conditions, before ignition and combustion can occur.” When being shipped, anyhydrous ammonia carries a placard of “non-flammable gas” in conformance with government regulation. However anhydrous ammonia can react with strong oxidants, acids, halogens, and many heavy metals. Anhydrous ammonia dissolves in water in an exothermic (heat releasing) process. It can become explosive when mixed with air and/or other gases. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/35 "2013-04-19T21:22:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Fine, here’s a quote from a [CBS news report](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57580185/frantic-search-for-survivors-after-deadly-texas-fertilizer-plant-blast/). Primary source appears to be the Dallas Morning News: Well, color me surprised. It looks like that detail was correct. Nonetheless, as the link that **Algher** posted demonstrates, the company got a generally clean bill of health from federal and state regulators. Likewise you got duped into believing that there was something wrong with the facility not having sprinklers, and it obviously didn’t occur to you to investigate what the government’s own standards for the situation were. Thanks to **Iggy** , we know now. Likewise your claim that “this is what small government advocates are all about” is nasty and immature. Actually we do not drum our fingers and cackle maniacally with glee while enjoying the prospect of people getting killed. Instead we intelligently investigate regulation, what it’s supposed to accomplish, and what it actually accomplishes. [Read up](http://www.apatheticvoter.com/RegulationDeregulation.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/36 "2013-04-19T21:25:59Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > You need to remember that fire fighting techniques vary with chemical fires. Standard sprinklers are not a good idea for a fire involving anhydrous ammonia. > > [CDC Info on Anhydrous Ammonia](http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/EmergencyResponseCard_29750013.html) > Yes, anhydrous ammonia is flammable. It requires a [NFPA 704](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704) placard showing flammability category 1. That means it “…require[s] considerable preheating, under all ambient temperature conditions, before ignition and combustion can occur.” When being shipped, anyhydrous ammonia carries a placard of “non-flammable gas” in conformance with government regulation. > > However anhydrous ammonia can react with strong oxidants, acids, halogens, and many heavy metals. Anhydrous ammonia dissolves in water in an exothermic (heat releasing) process. It can become explosive when mixed with air and/or other gases. well, good point. Water on anhydrous ammonia, bad idea. But IIRC there was a big fire at the plant well before the explosion. Presumably, the fire preheated the ammonia and that’s what made it explode. Or the first responders used water on the fire, causing the explosion. Still, if you have no sprinklers because “anhydrous ammonia + water = kaboom!” then that’s what you should say on the form. Much more convincing than “no danger of fire.” ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/37 "2013-04-19T21:36:47Z")
Indeed it was the pre-existing fire that resulted in this disaster. I am not sure it will ever be determined exactly what the cause of that fire was. On its own you have to heat anhydrous ammonia to 1,204°F before it will self-ignite. That is indeed significant preheating. But that does not mean it will not burn it it is exposed to fire at a much lower temperature. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/38 "2013-04-19T23:00:53Z")
As usual, strawman. When I hear most Libertarians/Republicans talk about deregulation it usually refers to cases like one of our dopers that bought land and some huge concrete monument was put (probably illegally) in the middle of the creek. Since it is in Maine, the regulations to get it out and return the creek to its natural state are onerous. I don’t think anyone is advocating having explosive buildings next to schools or unsafe chicken farms spreading salmonella. Now we could argue if the regulations are being enforced when a fertilizer plant can report “All safe. Nothing to see here.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/39 "2013-04-20T02:42:51Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What almost certainly happened was that the factory was well out of town and the town expanded to envelop it. This happens all the time. > [@MandaJo](#): > > There’s 2300 people in West. > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m interested in what came first - the plant or the school. [typo fixed: “of” changed to “or”] Me too. Upthread, I documented that the plant was built in 1962. I visited the website of West Middle School, but couldn’t find any history section. Nor was it obvious from the brick architecture when the time of construction was. [http://www.westisd.net/](http://www.westisd.net/) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/40 "2013-04-20T03:39:44Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What almost certainly happened was that the factory was well out of town and the town expanded to envelop it. This happens all the time. > [@MandaJo](#): > > There’s 2300 people in West. And they’re very very fat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=3)