# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/41 "2013-04-20T04:13:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m interested in what came first - the plant of the school. But you don’t need specific zoning regulations to know that putting a school next to something that may blow up is a bad idea. Believing these clowns when they said the plant had no risk shows lack of skepticism (as well as stupidity.) Let’s assume that the school came later. I’m sure it did. School boards and local government are not noted for intelligent placement of schools. [Rather, they are noted for land grabs, without even a thought of what is nearby or where they are placing it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal#Construction_of_the_93rd_Street_School_and_the_99th_Street_School). In this respect the local officials are surely to blame. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/42 "2013-04-20T04:20:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not a bad reporter, I just didn’t include the basis for my assertions. Here’s a [USA Today report](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/18/waco-texas-plant-explosion/2092769/): > > No sprinklers. Imagine that. Because, no danger of a fire. Really! Did you miss the part of my question that said “required by law”? Caret to try again? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/43 "2013-04-20T04:24:49Z")
[Here’s a USGS map of West from 1970.](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/texas/txu-pclmaps-topo-tx-west-1970.jpg) There are a couple of buildings marked that appear to be the same as the plant today. The school doesn’t seem to be there. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/44 "2013-04-20T10:12:34Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Let’s assume that the school came later. I’m sure it did. School boards and local government are not noted for intelligent placement of schools. [Rather, they are noted for land grabs, without even a thought of what is nearby or where they are placing it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal#Construction_of_the_93rd_Street_School_and_the_99th_Street_School). In this respect the local officials are surely to blame. But, but they’re part of the government. And the government always does what is best! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/45 "2013-04-20T10:26:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you miss the part of my question that said “required by law”? > > Caret to try again? Wouldn’t safety features, not required by law, be a triumph of deregulation? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/46 "2013-04-20T12:50:40Z")
The Texas plant that was the scene of a deadly explosion this week was last inspected by the [Occupational Safety and Health Administration](http://topics.bloomberg.com/occupational-safety-and-health-administration/) in 1985. The risk plan it filed with regulators listed no flammable chemicals. And it was cleared to hold many times the ammonium nitrate that was used in the [Oklahoma City bombing](http://topics.bloomberg.com/oklahoma-city-bombing/). […] Safety advocates say the problems go well beyond the individual case, which is under investigation by the U.S. Chemical Safety Board, EPA and OSHA. The ratio of OSHA inspectors to workers has fallen over the past three decades, and [there are now](http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=TESTIMONIES&p_id=1482) 2,200 for the country’s 8 million workplaces and 130 million workers. In Texas, OSHA conducted 4,448 inspections in the last fiscal year, a pace that would mean it would visit every workplace in 126 years, according to a report by the AFL-CIO. […] Lobbying groups for these plants say the risks are limited and they now face a panoply of regulations and oversight. “It’s extraordinarily out of the ordinary to have this kind of experience,” Kathy Mathers, vice president of the Fertilizer Institute in [Washington](http://topics.bloomberg.com/washington/), said in an interview. “Both the producer and retailer side are heavily regulated.” […] On July 25 about 50 groups sent a [petition](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/404584-petition-to-epa-to-prevent-chem-disasters-filed.html) to the agency asking it to invoke a provision of the [Clean Air Act](http://topics.bloomberg.com/clean-air-act/) to implement rules mandating the use of non-hazardous chemicals, or changes in processes at those plants to reduce the risks, such as lowering concentrations or changing temperatures. The petition was signed by groups such as the [United Steelworkers](http://topics.bloomberg.com/united-steelworkers/), [Sierra Club (FSUSX)](http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/FSUSX:US), Greenpeace and Air Alliance Houston. “Chemical plant safety is a high priority issue, and EPA is committed to continuing to work with our federal partners and stakeholders to pursue opportunities to increase the safety of chemical plants,” Johnson, the EPA spokeswoman, said via e-mail when asked yesterday about the Greenpeace petition. Since receiving the petition, EPA hasn’t responded and it faces no deadline to do so. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-19/texas-explosion-seen-as-sign-of-weak-u-s-oversight.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-19/texas-explosion-seen-as-sign-of-weak-u-s-oversight.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/47 "2013-04-20T15:31:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [typo fixed: “of” changed to “or”] > > Me too. Upthread, I documented that the plant was built in 1962. I visited the website of West Middle School, but couldn’t find any history section. Nor was it obvious from the brick architecture when the time of construction was. [http://www.westisd.net/](http://www.westisd.net/) Why are you concerning yourself with “facts”? Facts are irrelevant. We have a tragedy here, and the most important thing to do is exploit it to push our political agenda. Please get with the program. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Wouldn’t safety features, not required by law, be a triumph of deregulation? Possibly. Possibly not. When everyone depends on “regulators” to take care of them, they just assume that regulations are in place and they don’t need to trouble themselves with making their own assessments. Build a school near a potentially dangerous plant? No problem, regulations are in place to mitigate the danger. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/48 "2013-04-20T15:58:44Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The Texas plant that was the scene of a deadly explosion this week was last inspected by the [Occupational Safety and Health Administration](http://topics.bloomberg.com/occupational-safety-and-health-administration/) in 1985. The risk plan it filed with regulators listed no flammable chemicals. Just to interject some facts and knowledge into the discussion, it’s important to understand that there is not necessarily a contradiction here. In regulatory and workplace safety terms, “flammable” and “explosive” are different, and very specific, terms of art. It is entirely possible that something that is extremely explosive can be technically not considered “flammable,” and vice-versa. **Ammonium nitrate is not considered a highly flammable substance.** Depending on whcih country’s MSDS sheet you’re reading it is either not flammable, or slightly flammable. That isn’t West Fertilizer saying it. That is the actual official designation of ammonium nitrate by, like, everyone who knows anything about it, including governments. Here are MSDS sheets for ammonium nitrate: [http://www.csbp.com.au/home-ammonium-nitrate/pdf/1210898960\_ammoniun\_nitrate.aspx](http://www.csbp.com.au/home-ammonium-nitrate/pdf/1210898960_ammoniun_nitrate.aspx) [http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01290.htm](http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01290.htm) > **[Ammonium Nitrate MSDS](http://www.hummelcroton.com/msds/msdsp/amno3_p.html)** A lot of people in here, and on the Interweebs, are confusing terms of art for everyday words, much the same way people think “theory” in science means the same thing as it does on a detective show. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/49 "2013-04-20T16:20:15Z")
Has anyone asked the families of the victims? I’m going to hold off forming an opinion until I hear what they have to say, or at least until they’re standing next to someone giving a speech. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/50 "2013-04-20T16:45:13Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > You need to remember that fire fighting techniques vary with chemical fires. Standard sprinklers are not a good idea for a fire involving anhydrous ammonia. That doesn’t mean it was safe not to have sprinklers, it just means they shouldn’t have used standard water sprinklers. There are plenty of other options, though I have no clue if they would be better for the specific situation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/51 "2013-04-20T17:14:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I DON’T trust our current government, it’s a corporate oligarchy. I WISH we had an actual government that would enforce safety laws, but increasingly, we do not. > > Sure, feel free not to trust me, but Saint Rachel rarely does bad reporting. We’re not talking Faux News here. so far you’ve stated that Republicans, Libertarians and Fox news are evil. Could it be that this thread you started is a fruit offering to your god(s)? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/52 "2013-04-20T17:33:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When everyone depends on “regulators” to take care of them, they just assume that regulations are in place and they don’t need to trouble themselves with making their own assessments. Build a school near a potentially dangerous plant? No problem, regulations are in place to mitigate the danger. That’s kind of glib. We _have_ civilization because it’s more efficient if everybody doesn’t have to keep re-inventing the goddamn wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/53 "2013-04-20T18:24:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you miss the part of my question that said “required by law”? > > Caret to try again? From [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/20/west-fertilizer-company_n_3121110.html): > [@](#): > > The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). > > Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate - which can also be used in bomb making - unaware of any danger there. > > Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 lb (180 kg) or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren’t shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year. > > A U.S. congressman and several safety experts called into question on Friday whether incomplete disclosure or regulatory gridlock may have contributed to the disaster. > > “It seems this manufacturer was willfully off the grid,” Rep. Bennie Thompson, (D-MS), ranking member of the House Committee on Homeland Security, said in a statement. “This facility was known to have chemicals well above the threshold amount to be regulated under the Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Act (CFATS), yet we understand that DHS did not even know the plant existed until it blew up.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/54 "2013-04-20T18:42:33Z")
Texas is dotted with thousands of two-bit towns, some with colorful and interesting names, but most as dull as dishwater. If such a town has an employer, the employer owns the town, because there is seldom more than one. If the fertilizer company were to ask for a city wide referendum exonerating them of any responsibility, they would probably win. The Texas regulatory agencies…no, the “regulatory agencies”…most remind one of the line in the Dylan song: “The cops don’t need you, and man, they expect the same.” They will get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/55 "2013-04-20T19:01:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Texas is dotted with thousands of two-bit towns, some with colorful and interesting names, but most as dull as dishwater. If such a town has an employer, the employer owns the town, because there is seldom more than one. If the fertilizer company were to ask for a city wide referendum exonerating them of any responsibility, they would probably win. > > The Texas regulatory agencies…no, the “regulatory agencies”…most remind one of the line in the Dylan song: “The cops don’t need you, and man, they expect the same.” > > They will get away with it. :dubious: This was a small plant that employed 9 people. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/56 "2013-04-20T19:18:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Texas is dotted with thousands of two-bit towns Now Texas is dotted with a lot more than two bits of West, Texas. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/57 "2013-04-20T19:27:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > From [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/20/west-fertilizer-company_n_3121110.html): That’s certainly an important piece of information, but still doesn’t address the claim I asked to be substantiated: “The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features.” Plus, from your own cite the DHS inspections are focused on security and terrorism, not safety (per and OSHA type inspection), if they even manage to do an inspection in the first place. The plant was on the radar of agencies that actually are supposed to inspect for safety: > [@](#): > > Failure to report significant volumes of hazardous chemicals at a site can lead the DHS to fine or shut down fertilizer operations, a person familiar with the agency’s monitoring regime said. Though the DHS has the authority to carry out spot inspections at facilities, it has a small budget for that and only a “small number” of field auditors, the person said. > > \ > > Since the agency never received any so-called top-screen report from West Fertilizer, the facility was not regulated or monitored by the DHS under its CFAT standards, largely designed to prevent sabotage of sites and to keep chemicals from falling into criminal hands. > > The DHS focuses “specifically on enhancing security to reduce the risk of terrorism at certain high-risk chemical facilities,” said agency spokesman Peter Boogaard. “The West Fertilizer Co. facility in West, Texas is not currently regulated under the CFATS program.” > > The West Fertilizer facility was subject to other reporting, permitting and safety programs, spread across at least seven state and federal agencies, a patchwork of regulation that critics say makes it difficult to ensure thorough oversight. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/58 "2013-04-20T20:19:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :dubious: This was a small plant that employed 9 people. This source says fifteen died and sixty are missing. Picnickers, basking in the ammonia-scented breezes, perhaps? [http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Owner-of-West-fertilizer-plant-says-heart-is-4448339.php?cmpid=houtexhcat](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Owner-of-West-fertilizer-plant-says-heart-is-4448339.php?cmpid=houtexhcat) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/59 "2013-04-20T20:38:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This source says fifteen died and sixty are missing. Picnickers, basking in the ammonia-scented breezes, perhaps? > > [http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Owner-of-West-fertilizer-plant-says-heart-is-4448339.php?cmpid=houtexhcat](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Owner-of-West-fertilizer-plant-says-heart-is-4448339.php?cmpid=houtexhcat) employees, fire fighters and other dead people you wish to make light of. [From Reuters:](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/19/us-usa-explosion-texas-idUSBRE93H02A20130419) The company, which has fewer than 10 employees, had provided no contingency plan to the EPA for a major explosion or fire at the site. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/60 "2013-04-20T20:45:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > employees, fire fighters and other dead people you wish to make light of… Oh, heavens no, I’m not mocking them! I’m mocking you! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=4)