# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/61 "2013-04-20T20:51:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why are you concerning yourself with “facts”? Facts are irrelevant. We have a tragedy here, and the most important thing to do is exploit it to push our political agenda. Please get with the program. > … > > When everyone depends on “regulators” to take care of them, they just assume that regulations are in place and they don’t need to trouble themselves with making their own assessments. Build a school near a potentially dangerous plant? No problem, regulations are in place to mitigate the danger. So the answer is, ah, to scrap regulations and trust employers to self-police and the market after to adjust ? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/62 "2013-04-20T21:42:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, heavens no, I’m not mocking them! I’m mocking you! Well you’re doing it out of ignorance. You couldn’t be bothered to research your smartass retort. It was a very small company. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/63 "2013-04-20T22:05:47Z")
Is anyone less dead? If you have some sort of problem with me and/or my attitude, the Pit is open, round the clock. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/64 "2013-04-20T22:08:31Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > So the answer is, ah, to scrap regulations and trust employers to self-police and the market after to adjust ? No. The answer is don’t politicize a tragedy like this, especially when one doesn’t actually have any facts to back up the statements one is making. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/65 "2013-04-21T01:00:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. The answer is don’t politicize a tragedy like this, especially when one doesn’t actually have any facts to back up the statements one is making. It seems to me that indeed the OP has weak sauce there, but what **Try2B Comprehensive** linked to is making this really “spicy”. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/66 "2013-04-21T01:52:00Z")
More indication of the total incompetence of the Department of Homeland Security. The company here is basically a retailer of fertilizer products to farmers, not a manufacturer. You would think it would be simple for the DHS to contact the manufacturers of ammonium nitrate and ask for a customer list and for DHS to systematically contact these customers such as this retailer. I would expect a substantial fraction of such customers would have a significant quantity in stock. Why didn’t it? Because the DHS considers it more important to hassle disabled, elderly… airline passengers. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/67 "2013-04-21T02:25:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s certainly an important piece of information, but still doesn’t address the claim I asked to be substantiated: > > “The fertilizer plant had little or nothing in the way of safety features.” > > Plus, from your own cite the DHS inspections are focused on security and terrorism, not safety (per and OSHA type inspection), if they even manage to do an inspection in the first place. The plant was on the radar of agencies that actually are supposed to inspect for safety: Um, my cite explicitly says DHS tracks these things for safety: > [@](#): > > The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday… had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger **safety oversight** by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). bolding mine. And we still don’t know what caused the disaster, or if proper DHS oversight might have prevented it. C’mon, John. Ask yourself: What would Maddow do? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/68 "2013-04-21T02:34:50Z")
You know when you have one of those thoughts and then go "No, that’s way too stupid! and then you go “Or maybe not…” Is it possible that DHS operates under a different concept of “safety” than another regulatory body? That they focus on the security of the deadly shit in the sense of preventing unauthorized access, rather than preventing extreme forms of rapid expansion and air pollution? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/69 "2013-04-21T04:28:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. The answer is don’t politicize a tragedy like this, especially when one doesn’t actually have any facts to back up the statements one is making. Yeah, like we shouldn’t have politicized the massacre of those children in Newtown. I remember the right making noises about that. I think of such events as “teachable moments.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/70 "2013-04-21T05:06:10Z")
I don’t really so how it wouldn’t have a political aspect. On the Federal level, we got questions about regulation and enforcement. State level, lot of the same. Local level as well, the city planning here seems to be below Sim City. Now, I will say that given what we know so far, its hard to imagine an explanation that exonerates all responsible parties, but I’m willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/71 "2013-04-21T16:40:50Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Um, my cite explicitly says DHS tracks these things for safety: The “safety” they are referring to is ensuring the stuff isn’t made into bombs. DHS isn’t concerned with workplace safety. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/72 "2013-04-21T16:42:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, I will say that given what we know so far, its hard to imagine an explanation that exonerates all responsible parties, but I’m willing to listen. Unless the place was hit by a meteor, someone is at fault. A workplace accident is always someone’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/73 "2013-04-21T18:01:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The “safety” they are referring to is ensuring the stuff isn’t made into bombs. DHS isn’t concerned with workplace safety. Sounds like it _became_ a bomb, which rendered this part of the homeland unsafe. But I admit I don’t really understand what the DHS is about. It is worth noting that congresscritters felt that the DHS would have liked to have known about this place beforehand and did not through a failure of reporting. Not exactly the ‘deregulation’ **Evil Captor** is getting at, unless you want to get into a culture of contempt for regulation itself. What do you think, is ‘deregulation’ a valid thing to point fingers at in this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/74 "2013-04-21T22:23:08Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sounds like it _became_ a bomb, which rendered this part of the homeland unsafe. But I admit I don’t really understand what the DHS is about. It is worth noting that congresscritters felt that the DHS would have liked to have known about this place beforehand and did not through a failure of reporting. Not exactly the ‘deregulation’ **Evil Captor** is getting at, unless you want to get into a culture of contempt for regulation itself. > > What do you think, is ‘deregulation’ a valid thing to point fingers at in this discussion? Sure it is. Why do you think our regulatory agencies are so understaffed that they must rely on self-reporting by many businesses? Because it’s a defacto form of deregulation. The Job Creators must be allowed to work unfettered, untrammelled by ANY consideration. Underfunding an agency is a blessing, unless that agency is part of the defense department. Ever hear of “starve the beast”? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/75 "2013-04-22T01:18:45Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > What do you think, is ‘deregulation’ a valid thing to point fingers at in this discussion? We simply do not have the evidence to know. Nobody has presented a credible case; in this thread, nobody’s even demonstrated they know what the hell they’re talking about, or even understand the relevant terms of art. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/76 "2013-04-22T09:56:18Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sounds like it _became_ a bomb, which rendered this part of the homeland unsafe. But I admit I don’t really understand what the DHS is about. It is worth noting that congresscritters felt that the DHS would have liked to have known about this place beforehand and did not through a failure of reporting. Still not the type of bomb the DHS would have done anything about, had they known how much fertiliser was stored at the unit. And as others in the thread have pointed out, it should have been simple for them to get to know, considering that other government departments _did_ know. In other words, your cite is entirely useless in the context of this explosion and its causes, particularly as related to deregulation. > [@](#): > > Not exactly the ‘deregulation’ **Evil Captor** is getting at, unless you want to get into a culture of contempt for regulation itself. As, in fact, I think(?) you’re admitting here. Good for you if so. > [@](#): > > What do you think, is ‘deregulation’ a valid thing to point fingers at in this discussion? Deregulation? Almost certainly not. Poor regulation? (Which is not always the same thing), perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/77 "2013-04-22T12:58:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is anyone less dead? > > If you have some sort of problem with me and/or my attitude, the Pit is open, round the clock. I have a problem with your glib response regarding the size of the company. 9 employees. By all means, pit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/78 "2013-04-22T13:02:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Sure it is. Why do you think our regulatory agencies are so understaffed that they must rely on self-reporting by many businesses? Because it’s a defacto form of deregulation. No it’s not. It’s a defacto realization that there is only so much tax money that can be spent on regulatory oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/79 "2013-04-22T14:06:21Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > You need to remember that fire fighting techniques vary with chemical fires. Standard sprinklers are not a good idea for a fire involving anhydrous ammonia. Going back to this… was it the ammonia on fire in the first place? I thought the fire started elsewhere in the facility, and this fire eventually caused the ammonia to go kaboom. Do we know for sure that there weren’t supposed to be sprinklers where the fire started/spread? > [@RickJay](#): > > We simply do not have the evidence to know. Nobody has presented a credible case; in this thread, nobody’s even demonstrated they know what the hell they’re talking about, or even understand the relevant terms of art. Yah well that’s why I asked you. Do we not know if this is a case of de-facto deregulation? Could it still be terrorist sabotage? Has anybody ruled out stupid people negligently setting things on fire? If nobody knows anything, everybody ought to get off the anti-regulation high horse too. ETA: _Wait!!!_ Some people already KNOW that ‘regulation’ is always bad :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/80 "2013-04-22T14:42:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We simply do not have the evidence to know. Nobody has presented a credible case; in this thread, nobody’s even demonstrated they know what the hell they’re talking about, or even understand the relevant terms of art. By all means, enlighten us. Fighting ignorance and all that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=5)