# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/81 "2013-04-22T20:55:39Z")
Not sure if it has come to light yet in this thread, but NPR this morning reported the schools was built after the fertilizer plant. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Zoning is a form of regulation. you cannot put public schools next to nuclear waste dumps, and probably can’t put them next to fertilizer factories. In the future, can you wait to craft your narrative until you actually know the facts? You wouldn’t want people to get the crazy idea that you are more interested in pushing a particular viewpoint rather than getting at the truth. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/82 "2013-04-22T21:08:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not sure if it has come to light yet in this thread, but NPR this morning reported the schools was built after the fertilizer plant. > > In the future, can you wait to craft your narrative until you actually know the facts? You wouldn’t want people to get the crazy idea that you are more interested in pushing a particular viewpoint rather than getting at the truth. Would you? I think it was the chess champion Alekhine (coulda been someone else) who explained why he made a bold sacrifice early on in a game. He said, “After studying the board for a time, you realize there is a winning combination there for you, you may not know the exact sequence of all possible moves, but you know the combination exists, so you make your initial move, knowing that there was a win at the end.” Similarly, while I did not know EVERY detail of the situation in West Texas, I knew that deregulation had to play a hand … no or little safety equipment … school and nursing home close to plant, history of violations … complaints not followed up on … " A pretty clear pattern had emerged of some rural fertilizer plant not paying a hell a of a lot of attention to the regulations, in Texas, a state in the thrall of Republicans, who are all for deregulation. It was not a no-brainer … but I knew the combination was there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/83 "2013-04-22T21:54:08Z")
Wait a second? Its somehow smarter or more legitimate to build a school next to a dangerous chemical plant if its already there? What? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/84 "2013-04-22T21:57:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait a second? Its somehow smarter or more legitimate to build a school next to a dangerous chemical plant if its already there? What? No, but if your goal is to prove that government can save us from evil businessmen, it doesn’t help that it was government that made the bonehead decisions in the case you are holding up as proof of your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/85 "2013-04-22T22:07:20Z")
OK, but who else? Batman? If the point of your exercise is to score one on **Evil Captor** , well, OK. **JM** 1, **EC** 0. There. Done? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/86 "2013-04-22T22:13:15Z")
Government protecting the people from uncaring, unscrupulous businessmen. I take it you’ve not been to Texas, **John**? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/87 "2013-04-23T00:39:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not a bad reporter, I just didn’t include the basis for my assertions. Here’s a [USA Today report](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/18/waco-texas-plant-explosion/2092769/): > > No sprinklers. Imagine that. Because, no danger of a fire. Really! Would sprinklers have helped? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/88 "2013-04-23T00:44:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Has anyone asked the families of the victims? I tried. They don’t speak English. (They keep saying _“jaudiyal”_ – is that from some Tex-Mex border dialect of Spanish, or what?) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/89 "2013-04-23T00:46:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The answer is don’t politicize a tragedy like this . . . :dubious: I beg your pardon, sir. **Most** more-than-family tragedies, including natural disasters, demand a political response of some kind or other; because there is usually something government could have done to prevent or better prepare for it, and almost always something government can do now to prevent or better prepare for similar tragedies in the future. That “something” might not always be advisable and might in some cases be controversial, but it should always be an option open for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/90 "2013-04-23T00:48:38Z")
[Wiki sez so far, FWIW:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion) > [@](#): > > West Fertilizer Company has supplied chemicals to farmers since it was founded in 1962; as of 2013 it is owned by Adair Grain, Inc.[7][8] > > The plant was last inspected by OSHA in 1985. At the time, according to records obtained by the Associated Press, OSHA cited the plant for improper storage of anhydrous ammonia and fined it $30; OSHA could have imposed a fine of as much as $1,000. OSHA also cited the plant for violations of respiratory protection standards, but did not issue fines.[9] > > After a complaint in 2006 about an ammonia smell coming from the facility, Texas Commission on Environmental Quality investigated and cited the operator for not having obtained a permit for its two storage tanks containing anhydrous ammonia. A permit was issued once the operators brought the facility into accord with the regulations and recommendations made by the agency.[10][11] > > At the time of the explosion, the facility had a permit to store nearly 54,000 pounds (27 short tons; 24 t) of anhydrous ammonia.[7] Despite this, company officials filed an emergency planning report with the EPA stating there was no fire risk or explosion hazard involved at the plant.[12][13] > > According to a filing with the EPA in late 2012, the company stated that it stored 540,000 pounds (270 short tons; 240 t) of ammonium nitrate and 110,000 pounds (55 short tons; 50 t) pounds of anhydrous ammonia on the site.[14] > > \ > > A study from _The New York Times_ indicated that, “the last time the [Occupational Safety and Health Administration] inspected the plant was 28 years ago. In that inspection, dated Feb. 13, 1985, the agency found five ‘serious’ violations, including ones involving improper storage and handling of anhydrous ammonia and improper respiratory protection for workers. The agency imposed a $30 penalty on the company”.[47] ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/91 "2013-04-23T01:19:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > True story: when I went to grade school in Iceland the Quonset huts the students studied in were next to an abandoned mine field. We were expressly forbidden to go there! So how many kids tested the boundaries by going in? Off topic I know, but I just can’t picture a situation where at least some of the kids didn’t try to test it, at least until the first one got turned into chum. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/92 "2013-04-23T01:39:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, but who else? Batman? If the point of your exercise is to score one on **Evil Captor** , well, OK. **JM** 1, **EC** 0. There. Done? This is a debate forum on a website whose mission is to fight ignorance. When I see someone spreading ignorance, I call them on it. You do the same, sometimes. This is a complex issue that does not easily fall into “business = evil, government = good”, which is how the OP framed things. If he wishes to reframe the issue, so much the better for him. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/93 "2013-04-23T04:53:36Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > So how many kids tested the boundaries by going in? > > Off topic I know, but I just can’t picture a situation where at least some of the kids didn’t try to test it, at least until the first one got turned into chum. Well, me and several others that I know of. Cause getting blowed up would never happen to US. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/94 "2013-04-23T05:00:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is a debate forum on a website whose mission is to fight ignorance. When I see someone spreading ignorance, I call them on it. You do the same, sometimes. > > This is a complex issue that does not easily fall into “business = evil, government = good”, which is how the OP framed things. If he wishes to reframe the issue, so much the better for him. I don’t think I framed it in EXACTLY that way, John, but I don’t mind you calling me on whatever grounds you want to call me on. You do seem interested in using the flaws in you see in my argument to damage my credibility. I think my this is a natural, logical line to take, so I don’t think my credibility was damaged. My actual frame was, “This is EXACTLY why deregulation is not always a good idea. The whole libertarian/conservative advocacy of deregulation just falls too neatly in line with the interests of companies whose only real interest is in saving some bucks. I see a casual attitude toward anhydrous ammonia linked with lax oversight and … kaboom!” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/95 "2013-04-23T05:15:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I think my this is a natural, logical line to take, so I don’t think my credibility was damaged. Unless you’re going with the “I had no credibility to begin with” argument, you may wish to revise your opinion. Your line of argumentation is always so ridiculously ideological that I find it difficult to take anything you say seriously. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/96 "2013-04-23T06:16:28Z")
Looks like they were holding double the anhydrous ammonia they had permits for. The extra anhydrous ammonia was therefore… illegal? Which proves why regulations are a waste of time: criminals will just ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/97 "2013-04-23T13:40:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > By all means, enlighten us. Fighting ignorance and all that. You are the one making the claim. It’s your job to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/98 "2013-04-23T17:31:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You are the one making the claim. It’s your job to prove it. You said specifically, “no one has demonstrated that they even understand the terminology,” implying that you did. Or did I misread you? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/99 "2013-04-23T17:33:09Z")
[Here’s a thorough report by the Huffington Post.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/west-fertilizer_n_3134202.html?ir=Business#slide=2353023) Very lax regulatory enforcement, apparently common in small town industrial facilities. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/100 "2013-04-23T17:50:45Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > [Here’s a thorough report by the Huffington Post.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/west-fertilizer_n_3134202.html?ir=Business#slide=2353023) Very lax regulatory enforcement, apparently common in small town industrial facilities. The impression I get from the article is one of extreme regulatory incompetence going back to 1976. Not deregulation. If you want to debate how regulation and regulatory agencies usually tend to be like that, and what we can do to try and improve matters, I will happily join in the discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=6)