# Waco Explosion Triumph of Deregulation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098 "2013-04-19T02:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/101 "2013-04-23T18:56:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > [Here’s a thorough report by the Huffington Post.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/west-fertilizer_n_3134202.html?ir=Business#slide=2353023) Very lax regulatory enforcement, apparently common in small town industrial facilities. Where is the deregulation though? This seems to be an enforcement issue, not a regulation issue (i.e. there are regulations on the books, they aren’t being enforced the way they should be). Why don’t you just admit you were wrong and instead focus on the real issue here…if you actually want to discuss this subject at all of course. Seems like you just wanted to score some points against Republicans and business…or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/102 "2013-04-23T19:23:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Where is the deregulation though? This seems to be an enforcement issue, not a regulation issue (i.e. there are regulations on the books, they aren’t being enforced the way they should be). Why don’t you just admit you were wrong and instead focus on the real issue here…if you actually want to discuss this subject at all of course. Seems like you just wanted to score some points against Republicans and business…or something. He will not do so of course. I think the funding for the corresponding regulatory agency needs to be taken away, the agency demolished and the funds given back to the people since they are unable to do their job. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/103 "2013-04-24T02:19:36Z")
There may be more misregulation than deregulation in this story, but still I’m not sure the regulators belong at the top of the list of ‘people unable to do their job’ in this deadly explosion incident. Last I read, there was no evidence of ‘criminal intent’. So, what led to this? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/104 "2013-04-24T04:38:37Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > There may be more misregulation than deregulation in this story, but still I’m not sure the regulators belong at the top of the list of ‘people unable to do their job’ in this deadly explosion incident. Of course they’re not top of the list. Top of the list are the people storing the fertiliser. Regulators do come in second on the list though right? After all there are thousands of fertiliser plants that don’t blow up and they must be doing their jobs right, because from the story, we know that regulators are not contributing overmuch to plants staying safe. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/105 "2013-04-24T05:37:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well, that was clearly completely wrong. And whenever companies self-report, there is constant pressure to under-report, because that means less safety precautions and that means less money spent. The companies will always go for the short-term saving on money because, as we have REPEATEDLY heard from our conservative and libertarian brethren, the ONLY responsibility a company has is to its stockholders. > > The rest of us can die in a fire, apparently. Or an explosion. Well, if I were a stockholder, I would be rather unhappy with the management of this company for turning my investment, previously a functioning and profitable manufacturing facility, into a smoking crater and a pile of liability claims and bad PR. So in this case, I don’t see how the interests of the stockholder (facility explodes = bad) are that far from the interests of the general public (facility explodes = bad). ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/106 "2013-04-24T05:42:57Z")
And like others, I fail to see how this has anything to do with deregulation, or why **Evil Captor** thinks additional regulation could have solved the problem of the facility operators not obeying safety regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/107 "2013-04-24T06:31:31Z")
I guess if the staffs at the regulatory agencies have been cut such that they can’t really handle their assignments, it could be considered a kind of deregulation and also clear the regulators from blame of incompetence. Kind of like the flight delays aren’t really the fault of the remaining airport staff. I don’t know for sure if that is the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/108 "2013-04-24T08:08:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. The answer is don’t politicize a tragedy like this, especially when one doesn’t actually have any facts to back up the statements one is making. Face it: tragedies don’t always happen from politically-neutral causes. We must learn and grow from tragedies, and very often this _requires_ politicizing an event. Just because the results of the explosion don’t favor your side doesn’t mean you can just stick your goddamn head in the sand and complain that anybody who doesn’t immediately side with you is “politicizing” a tragedy. Screw that. Politicize tragedies _more_, people. Let’s actually make some progress for once instead of bowing in to the John Mace PC police requiring us to only ever take action or discuss events once we are a sufficient amount of time between tragedies has passed. What’s the amount of time you would prefer, anyway? A week? Two? Never? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/109 "2013-04-24T08:47:59Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > What’s the amount of time you would prefer, anyway? A week? Two? Never? The time it takes to accurately access the problem + the time it takes to develop a cost effective solution + the time it takes to implement it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/110 "2013-04-24T12:06:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I guess if the staffs at the regulatory agencies have been cut such that they can’t really handle their assignments, it could be considered a kind of deregulation and also clear the regulators from blame of incompetence. Kind of like the flight delays aren’t really the fault of the remaining airport staff. > > I don’t know for sure if that is the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised. 1. There has never been a time in history when the government had enough inspectors to inspect everyone, and 2. The effect of an inspection on a company really determined to take a fuck-it attitude to health and safety is usually that they spend two days cleaning shit up and then they go back to their old ways once the OSHA guy leaves. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/111 "2013-04-24T14:12:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. There has never been a time in history when the government had enough inspectors to inspect everyone, and I can dig it. Can’t have a cop in every bedroom, right? But that’s why I used the FAA example. Why, I can remember a time when they had the staff to handle all our air traffic on time, without any sequester-related delays. Not anymore- staff got cut. The plant in West hadn’t been inspected for 25 years- maybe there weren’t enough inspectors. But I don’t know, this case doesn’t seem to generate a lot of details. > [@](#): > > 1. The effect of an inspection on a company really determined to take a fuck-it attitude to health and safety is usually that they spend two days cleaning shit up and then they go back to their old ways once the OSHA guy leaves. Perhaps. I was kidding when I joked that criminals will just ignore rules anyway- now you’re kind of leaning that way. Anyway, in this case since they had just about double the amount of anhydrous ammonia for which they had permits, it might have been harder to handwave away. I dunno how OSHA or DHS handles that kind of thing though. Isn’t this chemical used to manufacture meth? If so, we have (potential) meth chemicals without a permit that went kaboom. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/112 "2013-04-24T14:30:20Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > He will not do so of course. Of course not. I still think it’s ultimately a regulatory problem. > [@](#): > > I think the funding for the corresponding regulatory agency needs to be taken away, the agency demolished and the funds given back to the people since they are unable to do their job. Yes, that’s the surest way to prevent future events like this. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/113 "2013-04-24T14:32:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Where is the deregulation though? This seems to be an enforcement issue, not a regulation issue (i.e. there are regulations on the books, they aren’t being enforced the way they should be). Why don’t you just admit you were wrong and instead focus on the real issue here…if you actually want to discuss this subject at all of course. Seems like you just wanted to score some points against Republicans and business…or something. Conservatives and libertarians have discovered that deregulation can be accomplished in a number of ways. In addition to repealing legislation, there is underfunding regulatory agencies and applying political pressure to make them accept “self regulation.” It’s a matter of technique, is all … the intent is still deregulation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/114 "2013-04-24T14:34:58Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Of course not. I still think it’s ultimately a regulatory problem. [/QUOTE] No, you claimed it was a ‘Triumph of Deregulation’. You’ve yet to show which regulations existed that would have prevented this accident but got deregulated away. Hell, you haven’t even shown that it’s actually a regulatory problem at all…as has been pointed out many times, there ARE regulations on the books that these folks ignored. If anything, this is an enforcement problem, coupled with people who were just not following the regulations on the books, and who will pay the price for that during the various law suits sure to follow…law suits that are possible because there ARE regulations on the books, they weren’t followed, and this caused the accident. But if you don’t want to fess up that your OP was a load, that’s fine I guess. Whatever floats thy boat. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/115 "2013-04-24T14:35:20Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Well, if I were a stockholder, I would be rather unhappy with the management of this company for turning my investment, previously a functioning and profitable manufacturing facility, into a smoking crater and a pile of liability claims and bad PR. So in this case, I don’t see how the interests of the stockholder (facility explodes = bad) are that far from the interests of the general public (facility explodes = bad). Well the majority of stockholders of fertilizer plants, etc., enjoy increased returns because the majority of plants do not blow up. It’s a lotto, they win, the people of West, Texas, lose. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/116 "2013-04-24T14:36:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Conservatives and libertarians have discovered that deregulation can be accomplished in a number of ways. In addition to repealing legislation, there is underfunding regulatory agencies and applying political pressure to make them accept “self regulation.” It’s a matter of technique, is all … the intent is still deregulation. Is this just rhetoric and bullshit, or do you have a cite showing deregulation as a cause for this accident? Feel free to provide requested cite. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/117 "2013-04-24T14:37:10Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > And like others, I fail to see how this has anything to do with deregulation, or why **Evil Captor** thinks additional regulation could have solved the problem of the facility operators not obeying safety regulations. As my other responses imply, properly funding existing regulatory agencies so they don’t have to trust facilities to self-report would also be a great start. That’s what the plant in West, Texas, was doing when they said the worst case scenario was a brief release of stinky ammonia gas. Self-reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/118 "2013-04-24T14:40:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is this just rhetoric and bullshit, or do you have a cite showing deregulation as a cause for this accident? Feel free to provide requested cite. Well … the self-reporting is DEFINITELY belied by the smoking crater in the ground where the plant used to be, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/119 "2013-04-24T14:48:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well … the self-reporting is DEFINITELY belied by the smoking crater in the ground where the plant used to be, isn’t it? And this is because of deregulation. Yeah, I get that this is your assertion…did I miss your linked cite demonstrating your contention? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098/120 "2013-04-24T17:33:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well the majority of stockholders of fertilizer plants, etc., enjoy increased returns because the majority of plants do not blow up. It’s a lotto, they win, the people of West, Texas, lose. And the stockholders in the West, Texas plant lose too. Your claim that the interests of the stockholders and residents diverge in this case is unsupportable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waco-explosion-triumph-of-deregulation/656098.md?page=7)