Waddaya mean she's a minor? She was a MAJOR 'ho!

Great Debates
21

“Blaming the victim” always sounds like a bad thing to do. But if a 17 year old girl chases after and ends up sleeping with an older man, is she a victim?

My sister, when she was 16, dated a 22 year old guy. She was stoked that she got this guy. Both parties were pretty happy with the arrangement, and she wasn’t traumatized or permanently scarred. I certainly wouldn’t say she “entrapped” him, since he had the power to decline anything she offered, but at the same time I would say she’s 50% responsible for any statutory rape that occurred. Or possibly more, if she lied about her age. Am I now “blaming the victim”?

As for the laws, it’d be nice if there was a better way to define if a person is capable of giving consent other than their age. I know 25 year olds that don’t have the maturity to understand the consequences of their actions, and I have known minors who had better judgment than many adults. However, an age-barrier is simpler, and mostly works for the majority. Oh well.

22

Hamlet thanks for holding off on “ripping me up one side and down the other”. But, you are still missing my true underlying assumptions. Your assertion that “the boy would have the defense that he reasonably believed she was over 17” does NOT apply in New York (See my second post w/citations). Perhaps I’m thinking a bit too local here, but that is my focus.

And also, I’m not looking to “blame the victim” either. I’m talking about criminal consequences for consentual acts. In my mind under the circumstances as presented, there is no victim, but there is a chargable felony. My point is that (at least in NY – probably elsewhere as well) knowedge of the ‘consenting’ minor’s age is NOT an element of the crime of statutory rape – and that in our society, it should be. The law in NY is that a 17 y.o. is simply incapable of consent. My argument is that this precipt is outdated – and that teens are able to effectively consent earlier than 17.

Hey we were all seventeen once…I knew what I was doing, how 'bout you?

23

I do not think admission really makes much of a difference in this context. Substitute “prude” with your derision of choice and you will see what I mean. Admission != mitigation.

In my personal life I am a shocking prude as well. But I am equally shocked that to some, sexual propriety is more important than justice. I don’t think I am out of line at all by remarking accordingly. Feel free to wax poetic about a scarlet-lettered golden age, and I will feel free to cast the occasional aspersion.

Or better yet, perhaps you would prefer to discuss the social consequences of stringent sexual mores…The good ones and the bad ones.

24

Abe

I don’t know much about N.Y. criminal law, but Rape in the Third Degree can only be done if the Defendant is over the age of 21. It is another example of the legislature’s proper concern over the age differential between the perp and the victim. You right in saying that , when the defendant is over the age of 21, the ability of the 17 year old girl to consent is not an issue. She can’t consent, regardless of how much older she looks, dresses or acts. And you know what, I’m fine with that. I don’t care if that 17 year old girl can get into clubs and party, and go home with some sleazebag. That sleazebag better make sure that the girl is above 17, or he deserves what he gets. Now if you want to argue whether 17 is a proper age of consent, that is one thing. It’s another to say that some sleazebag over the age of 21 shouldn’t be charged because he couldn’t be bothered to make sure his victim is over 17.

25

different states have widely divergent laws on how to deal w/the age of consent. IN my state (MI), age of consent is 16. If you’re under that, any contact of the groin, thigh, breast, buttocks is punishable. Consent is not a defense, neither do they have to prove that you knew the person was under age. (although realistically, if you did know, 'cause you were the teacher etc., prepare for the worst). And yes, they do prosecute 18 year olds for contact w/15 year olds.

I taught my son that before he has contact w/a female, he needs to confirm proof of age. Presently (just finishing high school), it’s not that difficult, but I fear for him in the upcoming years.

on the R. Kelley case, according to this if it’s the girl they think it is, she’s the daughter of ‘an associate’, so the defense " I thought she was older" would be a tough gig.

Is it totally fair? no. Is it totally screwed up? no. I don’t think it’s a ‘bad’ idea to have some knowledge of who you’re pumping.

OTOH, we routinely bust grocery store clerks, bars for selling to minors, and don’t buy the “I thought he/she was of age”, “They told me so” defense to that. And, frankly I have no problem with holding sexual contact to at least as high of a standard as “wanna beer with that hotdog?”

26

I think this whole thing is just plain dumb. Women (occasionaly even ones - gasp - under the age of 18) like to have sex with older men. Men like to have sex with younger women. I’m not condoning dirty old men to take advantage of young girls, but as a society I think we make way too big a deal of this kinda thing.

Its a part of this whole ‘Sex is bad/dirty/wrong’ way of thinking which, as I said earlier, is just plain dumb. Sex, done properly between consenting individuals, is great. Sure this probably wasnt the safest situation but that’s life. Try to abolish sexuality. Go on. I dare you. You wouldn’t be the first to try and fail. Human Beings have sex, sometimes dirty, shocking, unsafe sex. That is not an issue for the law to handle, but for the individuals involved. If this was non-consentual, fine no argument, its rape. Otherwise, leave this for the individuals/families involved.

Folks, its not like a switch turns on at 18 and makes it ok to have sex with a 30 year old. Life is shades of grey, some people are ready for things before others.

Pahleeeeese! I meet a girl. She says she’s 18, looks about that old, what am I supposed to do? ‘Before I ask you out, lemme see some ID’?! Personally, I always err on the side of caution, but it is rather difficult to guage age by appearance or mannerisms.

27

Yep, I told him that. Of course, that’s only 'cause I don’t want to see him in jail, like a friend of mine’s son who at age 18 had contact w/a girl under the age of consent. YMMV.

28

BUT, you don’t usually go to jail for selling to minors. In NY, they just take your liquor license away, maybe a $$ fine. Most other ‘strict liability’ crimes – no jail (at least on first offense). Even if you asked for ID and she gives you her fake ID – doesn’t matter – 3rd Degree Rape=Class E Felony=1-3 years in tha’ State pen. Tough time for a 21 y.o.

Knowledge of the minors age should matter.

29

Wring: Have you ever follow your own advice? Seriously. Have you ever encountered an attractive girl that you wanted to pursue, then stopped and asked for her id to ensure she was over 18? I understand your feelings - you don’t want your kid to go to jail. But lets try to give the children of the world realistic approaches to sex (i.e. sex in relationships as opposed to flings, safe sex, etc) then unrealistic gibberish. No wonder kids are confused about sex. Look at the advice they are given…

30

… Of course if you are not a man, as I may have erroneously assumed, my semi-rhetorical question doesn’t really apply. But my point remains the same. You are never going to see ‘checking her id’ as a major step in the road to romance…

31

And, Abe like I said, I don’t have a problem treating a sexual situation as more ‘important’ than selling cigarettes or ‘wanna beer w/that’.
Absolutely I think specific knowledge should be dealt w/harsher.

OTOH, WRT ‘but she told me she was 18…’ Um, to play devils advocate here, if you knew (and you do) that having contact w/an underage person can land your ass in jail (not to mention getting put on sex offender registries etc.), why in the world would you not look for some demonstration of proof?

Hell, I remember when I was first divorced (32), meeting some guy and thinking he was maybe all that & a bag of chips. And he’s talking away about stuff, mentions casually that he’s about to graduate, and I’m thinkin, ok, so he’s like 21 or 22, that’s not too bad, then it becomes clear that he was graduating from high school… my jaw dropped. I mean - he was 6’2, and had a mustache. there aughta be a law…

Clues can include - where do they go to school (hint, if they’re in school all day from 8 to 3, it ain’t likely to be college), do they drive? do they live w/mom & dad? I grant you that not all of these are fail safe, but hell, ask to see a year book…

32

tulley we cross posted. No, I’m female. No, I didn’t ask for ID, but then again way back in the cavemen days when I was young and dating, the laws weren’t quite so rigorously dealt with, nor was there a sex offender registry (tho’ Michigan’s just was pulled down due to a court ruling).

And, I seriously have seen 17, 18 year olds prosecuted for having consensual contact w/a 15 year old. And they have to register.

Meeting at a party - I’d sure as hell try and find some one who knew them. Meeting them in a college class, I’d probably assume they were of age. “can you drive?” buy cigarettes? etc.

I’m saying at this point in the universe, casual sex w/a near stranger has an enormous amount of risk.

33

I am surprised no one’s brought up Rob Lowe yet.

34

I agree that there is risk. My main point from all of this is that I believe there is too much legal risk from consentual sex. Sex is chancy enough to begin without bringing draconian sex laws to bear. I also think it is a cop out to use the old ‘well I did it when I was younger but things were different then’ line.

Why are things different now? Why should a 22 year old guy have to tell his neighbors hes a registered sex offender because he had consensual sex with a 16 year old? Why do people freak out when a 15 year old girl sleeps with a 19 year old guy?

The answer usually involves fear, which I don’t think is a good attitude when devising a social/legal plan for sexual encounters. I shouldnt need to ask for id. If she seems like a level headed, intelligent girl, who wants to sleep with me, who is around the age of 18, give or take a year or two, why shouldn’t I be able to sleep with her?

35

w/in a year or two of 18, there isn’t a problem. W/in a year or two of 16 is.

And I did not use the ‘things were different when I was younger’ as a cop out - you asked “did you do that?” the answer was, nope, I didn’t, why? well, hell, when I was 18, the pill was available, abortions were legal, herpes hadn’t come around yet , let alone AIDS, lots of things are different.

What I think should be the law is that if the two people are contemporaries, (w/in 2 years of age), consent should be an issue, and assuming, also that there’s not some other specific qualifier (mental disability, emotional illness etc. that may comprimise their ability to legally consent), I don’t think there should be registration necessary, but I also don’t have a problem w/ the law being involved.

Any line you draw is going to be arbitrary. But, w/o a line somewhere, you’d have no recourse for some nearly 13 year old conning a 10 year old to pull their pants down.

Again, you do have access to all sorts of info about a person (generally) w/o real intrusion. Unless what you want to do is meet some stranger and bed them w/in an hour of meeting, and then, you bet, you should at the very least find out how old they are.

IN generaly living, you’d meet at a party, in class, at work, etc. Other people you know would know them. You’d have time to get to know them, maybe see them a few times, be at a store where they had to show ID to cash a check (clue 15 year olds don’t write checks, or have credit cards usually). know if they have a curfew (14 year olds usually do), have to be at school 8 - 3 M-F, live w/parents, have a drivers’ license etc.

I do expect my son to be able to have a legitimate reason to believe the person is over 15. and it isn’t too much to ask.

Most of the folks that I"ve known who were convicted of it, did know the age of the person involved (or approximately), and in the two cases that didn’t, one was a 45 year old who should have figured out that a 45 year old drunken convict isn’t really the typical ideal for an 18 year old, and the other was a 20 year old at a party having casual sex w/some one he didn’t know at all.

The latter guy, I have a lot of sympathy for his situation, but the bald face truth is, it isn’t generally safe (for a number of reasons) to have casual sex w/some one you don’t know at all.

36

In 1983 (let’s see, 19 years ago), I was kicked out of bed by a 19-yr-old when I told him I was 17. His buddy had been prosecuted for statutory rape, and he wasn’t going to risk it. We were both college students living in a dormitory.

So, yes, people who care are going to ask before they dip their wicks.

37

I can think of an excellent modern justification for what can seem like an antediluvian law:

We know that teenagers tend to lack judgment. And we know that a certain proportion of teenagers - probably a majority under 17 - will agree to do something to make a good impression on an older person. So they’re easily manipulable. Even though other teenagers are perfectly capable of consenting in the full, adult meaning of the term, to protect those who aren’t, we place a certain amount of risk squarely on the adult. Remember that if we permitted a consent defense in these cases, the very substantial fear many teenagers have of having their vulnerabilities revealed would prevent all but a few successful prosecutions. (Think, for example, of the young men - I use that term intentionally, since most were not children but teenagers - abused by priests. How many of them do you suppose would come forward to prosecutors and be willing to testify against a defense of consent?)

It can result in a miscarriage of justice, when we prosecute those where the “crime” is truly victimless. But I think those miscarriages are worth the greater justice of protecting the vulnerable.

I do think that’s the unpleasant choice: either we fail to prosecute those who are predatory, or prosecute those who aren’t. There’s no squaring this particular circle. And unless someone’s able to produce data indicating a significant number of wrongly prosecuted cases, I’m willing to accept an injustice committed primarily against those those dumb, horny, and old enough to know better.

38

Please do not assume that I am part of this nebulous some with whom you have a problem. I never stated that sexual propriety was more important than justice. I merely stated that in "Times like these I just want to move to Mayberry, bury my head in the sand, and live happily ever after in the land of blissful ignorance. "

Times like these. Not all the damn time. And not at the price of justice.

Justice is, without doubt, vastly more important.

So I’ll thank you kindly to keep your assumptions off me.

39

Fair enough. But what I was specifically responding to was manifestly clear from my first post. Namely:

I called it like I saw it. If I jumped to any conclusions, I humbly withdraw.

40

Not to mention the fact that the so-called “golden age” never really existed.

shrew, you just hit one of my pet peeves.

Why does everyone think that in the past, everyone was sexually responsible and people were NEVER perverted or promiscious?

Dammit!