Waddaya mean she's a minor? She was a MAJOR 'ho!

Great Debates
101

There may be… I haven’t met any myself, and I doubt I ever will, but I have no reason to think it’s impossible. I’d have to look at each case individually, unless presented with medical evidence that 100% of humans younger than N years are incapable of giving consent.

Is there a victim? Well, if the child doesn’t feel she has been victimized, she wasn’t subject to any force or fraud, and she (as an individual) hasn’t been found incapable of giving consent, I don’t think she’s a victim.

And I don’t think we can possibly help the child by telling her, “I know you don’t feel like anything is wrong, but what happened was very bad, and your friend is a very bad man who will be going away for a long time,” creating a painful memory from what was otherwise a pleasant (or at least unremarkable) experience.

I disagree. The statement “all children under 16 are incapable of giving consent” makes about as much sense as “all men over 20 are capable of running down the street carrying a television.” Both statements are substitutes for actually discovering the facts of each individual case, and they’re only useful when saving time and money is more important than justice.

I know when I was that age, I acted differently while I was in class than when I was with my friends. Could it be that you’re just not seeing them in situations that demand this kind of maturity?

102

I think the term “minor” is derogatory. To me, It implies that you are less of a person unless you are a certain age. Many “minors” I know are a hell of a lot more responsible than some adults I know.

I.D’s can be faked. Birth Certificates can be faked. I don’t see how it’s fair that people can be charged with statuatory rape if this so called “minor” tricked them.

Yes, they have to draw the line somewhere, but I don’t agree with the stance that my particular state takes in regard to this. In Oregon, an 18 year old could be thrown in jail and labeled a sex offender for having consensual sex with a 17 year old. actually, it doesn’t even have to be sex. Even touching the breasts or buttocks region could get you in trouble for “corrupting a minor”.

The law pretends that some magical switch comes on when you turn 18 that makes you able to have sex with anyone above that age and makes anyone below that age by even a day off limits. So your 18 years old huh? Well, you can bed a 45 year old paroled felon with AIDS, but I’m afraid making out with your 17 year old girlfriend is off limits.

103

I think there must be some sort of age limit, not because i think a minor isn’t able to give an informed consent (from a pragmactical point of view, not from the legal point since it this can the underaged person, by definition, can’t give an informed consent), but because young people are to easy to manipulate and influence. Even a 6 y.o. has a sexual curiosity and could want to have a sexual contact with an adult. But any adult would be able to manipulate said 6 y.o. in any way he wants, which is very unlikely to be similar to what the 6 y.o. envisionned.
However :

-I don’t think the sentences should be the same for an actual rape an a statutory rape. If the minor gave consent, it should be at least an attenuating circumstance. In the same way, a minor commiting a crime is assumed to have a reduced responsability, usually, but not no responsability at all. It depends on the countries, of course, but if say, a 14 y.o. committing a murder can be sentenced (hence is at least partially responsible for his actions), he should be considered also partially responsible when giving his consent. Hence, the older person he/she slept with shouldn’t be sentenced like he had commited an actual rape. Either minors are responsible, either they aren’t.
-I read in this thread that in some places (here too, I believe, actually), the age difference is irrelevant. Which appears to be nonsentical to me. Some posters wrote that 18 yo have been actually branded and sentenced as child abusers for having slept with their 17 yo gf. Or 15 yo with a 13 yo. There should always be an age difference limit, and only above that age difference could someone be prosecuted. Especially given the fact that a “child abuser” will have to face a lot of problems in his future life.
-If someone had very reasonnable reasons to believe his/her partner was above age of consent, he/she shouldn’t be held criminally responsible. If someone manage to enter in a place where he/she shouldn’t be allowed in, lie about his/her age and even show a fake ID, we’re not even talking about someone who gives consent, but about someone who’s doing everything he/she can to enter in someone else’s pants. If you’re able to do all that, there no way I can consider that as a “lack of consent”. Except if the minor is mentally disturbed, but in this case, the situation is not different than in the case of a mentally disturbed adult
-IMO, the age of consent should be under 18. Don’t know about the US, but here I believe the average age for the first intercourse is around 17 (the age of consent is 15, except for people who have a de jure or de facto authority on the minor). If the law state the age of consent is 18 while actual first intercourse happen on average at 17, it means that more than half of the population is criminally liable (the 17 yo necessarily slept with someone who was either older or younger, hence someone commited a crime). When the law isn’t any more in touch with reality to the point that at least half the population is supposed to be guilty of a “heinous” crime (child’s rape), there’s a big issue, and it should be adressed ASAP.
-Finally (and this part is essentially directed to shrew), it seems to me that sex is overrated. It’s great, it’s important, whatever…But it’s not the ultimate experience in life, except under rare cicumstances. Having had an intercourse willingly while a teenager certainly isn’t going to devastate your life, even if the experience wasn’t that great. And even if your partner was twice your age. Sex without love isn’t psychologically devastating. Sex with someone older isn’t either. It can even be perceived as very positive (depending on age difference/circumstances, of course)…look at this poster thinking that a 16 yo boy having sex with a 24 yo will just “get lucky” (and keeping in mind that a lot of people tend to think boys are more immature than girls hence should be less able to give consent). Teens can make worst mistakes than that, with worst consequences. I’m ignoring pregnancy/MST issues here, because it’s another debate, related to sex ed.
If one stop considering sex as somewhat “sacred”, and considers it in a more mundane way, more in touch with the ordinary life of a large part of the population, the issue at hand immediatly becomes much less serious.

I would add also (again to shrew) that one should be cautious with one’s wording. Writing that * “anyone who wishes to have sex with a 14-year old should be locked up. Period.” * basically means you believe that people should be punished for their thoughts. Fortunately, we still din’t invent a thought control device…(and considering the age of a lot of models, I tend to think that many advertizers think that most men enter in the category which should be “locked up” according to you).

104

Sure it’s possible, but from what I can tell of my students, they are much more mature in class than out. I am often shocked by their immature behavior outside of my room that they would never attempt in my presence (and by all accounts, I’m the most liberal relaxed teacher they have). So if what I see is the"better" version of them, then their at home behavior is even less mature. So sure their behavior is different at home, but not necessarily better or indicative of a maturity that I don’t see.

Well, technically speaking, a minor is less of a person. A minor is protected from things from which adults aren’t protected. They receive privileges that adults don’t receive. If a minor is suddenly homeless, without a guardian, or starving in the streets, the government will provide for him/her. An adult doesn’t get a foster parent! An adult doesn’t receive protection from criminal prosecution the way a child does. So in the eyes of the law, your statement isn’t far off. A minor does not bear the burden of adulthood, so the phrase “less of a person” rightfully applies, IMHO.

I was discussing this with a RL friend of mine yesterday, and she and I both agree with you. I kept trying to get around it, but if the girl lies and intentionally tricks the boy, and he had a legitimate reason to believe she was of age, then he should not be punished.

Ah, thank you for the admonition. Of course.

Sweet Lord. You have no concept of what it’s like to be female. Calling a sexual encounter under the age of fifteen “unremarkable” is unfathomable to me. I remember every single time a man put his hands on me in a way that made me uncomfortable. One of those men was later jailed for molesting a little boy, and had my father not taught me “good touch/bad touch” so fervently that I was aware of what was going on, that could have been me. As it was, I ran from the room and found my mama. No one would have had to tell me I had been violated. I would have known it instinctively and without question down to my very bones. And as an adult, I would have been FURIOUS that no one had been there to protect me. I remember many instances when men, including my own grandfather, looked at me with lust in their eyes. There is nothing UNREMARKABLE about it. It is a violation of a child’s very soul.

105

I think that people who frequently engage in loveless sex probably have some issues to deal with. In my experience, people (at least females) who are promiscous usually have grown up in broken homes.

I disagree. If we all went the “sacred” route and took more consideration into who we were having sex with, we’d be better off. Less STDs, less unwanted pregnancies, less single parent homes, less deadbeat dads. A cavalier attitude towards sex will only worsen these issues.

106

I agree with you on both accounts, blalron.

107

I know her personally, but did not know her when she was twelve – we did not meet until we were both adults. But even if we had never met and I had merely heard her story on an online message board I would be quite certain that she was incapable of giving informed consent because there are no twelve year olds capable of giving informed consent. They do not exist. I do not think that anyone who knows anything about children or human development will disagree with me on this. There is better evidence for the existence of the yeti than there is for the existence twelve year old child capable of fully comprehending the potential consequences of sex and making a well-informed decision to consent to sex.

108

I’m sorry to hear about your experience, but it’s irrelevant to everything I’ve said here.

My position is that consensual encounters with no force or fraud involved should be legal–encounters where the state currently does step in and tell the minor, “you were violated, you just don’t realize it.” If you were uncomfortable and ended up running from the room, obviously whatever happened was against your will, and your situation was different.

Now, just because you had a bad experience at a young age doesn’t mean that every sexual experience at a young age is bad. I know a few girls who were having sex at age 15 and younger, and they remember it in a much more positive light than you do.

An interesting assertion. I remember learning about pregnancy and STDs in school, year after year, and understanding quite well. Exactly which potential consequences is a 12-year-old unable to comprehend?

109

Oh really. It’s funny how many people claim they understood complex concepts as children, considering that actual studies on childhood development or even simple daily interaction with children is enough to prove that there are many things that children are incapable of understanding at all. What you think you remember about what you understood as a child is not proof of anything. People cannot easily remember what they really did and did not understand as children because their brains are, in a very literal and very real sense, different than they were when they were children.

110

Just a couple of thoughts:

*I would generally trust the judgment of the average 18 year old (I know some of them would be bad, but I am talking most here)behind the wheel of a car, I would NOT trust the judgment of the average 12 year old (once again I know there would be exceptions). Anyone who thinks that it should be legal for ALL 12 year olds to drive please sound off, or if anyone thinks that we should be spending our tax dollars on a case by case assessment of 12 year olds who want to drive, please let us know. For that matter why don’t you let a twelve year old manage you checking account for a year and see if they are competent to make life altering choices.

*Playing Doctor, Experimenting, or just Having Sex with your peers as part of the growing process is qualifiedly different than a more experienced person taking advantage of your lack of experience. I could probably talk a 12 year old into giving me his/her allowance of their own free will, but A) that doesn’t make it right, and B) the very fact that they are so young and unsophisticated is part of why I can get them to happily hand over their money. You might say that the kids allowance in exchange for spending time with older folks who make them feel more mature is a fair trade from the kids perspective. But the 12 year old is not going to get pregnant/STD’s/heart broken from just hanging out with an old man (well, hopefully not:)).

*I slept with random people throughout high school, college and into my twenties. As I grew older my responsibility about birth control/STD protection improved. Seems obvious but as we get older we get more responsible. There is no age that you wake up in the morning and have your shit together. I personally never really did. We can’t assume that no one will ever have their shit together, and we can’t assume that everyone always has, so as a society at some point we have to draw a line in the sand. After this age good, before this age bad. Is it arbitrary? Pretty much. Can it be painfully unfair? Absolutely. That is the nature of the beast.

*A fair portion of this debate seems to be really- Is it worse to condemn an “innocent” person or let a “guilty” one go free. I would say that depends on the crime. Shoplifting? I would say err on the side of letting the guilty go free. Having sex with minors? I would say err on the side of condemning an innocent person. The sacrifice is worth the benefits (obviously I would change my tune if I were one of the innocents condemned, but I wouldn’t want legislation to be based on that) As it is, we “sacrifice” the LIVES of 40,000 people a year for the convenience of driving.(http://www.legallawhelp.com/safety_and_health/auto_accidents/)

*I don’t have a cite but I would bet you that the majority of pre-age of consent pregnancies, STD’s, etc. are the result of contact with a person older than the minor’s peer group. I may be way off base on this one. The point is, that if my assertion is true (and I freely admit it may not be) that those problems would not have occurred were it not for the older person having sex with that younger person. And just because the younger person wanted it too doesn’t make it OK, there was a lot of shit I wanted as a kid (hell, there still is) that was very, very, very bad for me. I am glad that there were parents and laws and a society around to keep me from killing myself or others until I had a chance to grow up a little (in my case a very little).

  • I may have repeated some stuff that others have said, I tried to read most of the posts, but in addition to being self righteous, I have a very short attention span.
111

The concepts of pregnancy and STDs aren’t really that complex.

Any 12-year-old child can understand that if they hang around other kids with chicken pox or the flu, they’re likely to catch the disease - that’s why they get to stay home from school when they’re sick, so they don’t infect their classmates. It’s not hard to grasp that there are some diseases you catch by having sex with someone instead of by letting them cough on you.

And I haven’t met a single 12-year-old who doesn’t know where babies come from.

112

I don’t know what it means to be emale either, but I know about being a parent and I remember being a child.

I just want to make sure that I’ve got Mr2001’s position right -

It should be legal for any age adult to have sex with any age child as long as it can not be shown that the child was an unwilling participant, coerced, or incapable of informed consent. A step father having sex with his ten year old step daughter who says that she wants to and says that she understands about sex and disease is just dandy, unless you can prove that she was coerced.

Okaaaaaaay.

No more really needs to be said. If you really believe what you say then you are need of some serious help. Bleh.

113

Correct. In fact, age isn’t a factor at all - with possible exceptions for relationships such as parent/child, employer/employee, or teacher/student (in which one person is in a position of power over the other, and coercion is almost implied), it should be legal for any person to have sex with any other person, as long as neither participant is unwilling, coerced, or incapable of informed consent.

The primary opposing argument seems to be that nearly all minors are incapable of informed consent. If that’s true, it should be a piece of cake to prove on an individual basis, right?

Is there some reasoning behind that accusation, or just a gut feeling of “oh, that’s icky, only a crazy person would think that”?

114

They are apparently complex even for adults, or we would not have any unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted disease would be practically unheard of.

115

How many of those unwanted pregnancies do you think are caused by a failure to understand how women get pregnant? Most people with double-digit ages realize the stork is just a fairy tale.

Also note that since sex education is much more thorough today than it has been in the past, young people may actually be more informed about preventing pregnancy and STDs than a lot of adults. How many adults were taught about contraception and symptoms/prevention of STDs (and were tested on what they learned), year after year, from elementary through high school?

116

I would be interested to hear your explanation for unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease if you believe that everyone has a perfect understanding and comprehension of what causes and what can prevent these things.

You cannot possibly believe that the sort of K-12 sex education you describe is common in the US. I myself had but one semester of sex education in the thirteen years I spent in public school. Many children live in districts with “abstinence only” sex education programs, where they will learn nothing about contraception.

117

Yes, Mr2001, I think that the position that adults should be able to have sex with minors of any age is quite icky and that only a crazy person would think that.

Interestingly, you seem to agree that society must decide that some relationships are to considered so imbalanced as to make noncoercion impossible - “relationships such as parent/child, employer/employee, or teacher/student (in which one person is in a position of power over the other, and coercion is almost implied)” An arbitrary place to draw a line … is no child able to be competent to decide that they want to have sex with dear old dad? Or with teach or coach or boss?

Or is it that you find such circumstances icky?

118

That’s a topic for a whole new thread. :wink:

I’d suggest unintended pregnancy is mostly caused by a lack of knowledge about contraception, including how to obtain birth control devices, how to use them properly, and which methods of birth control work best. (Q: What do you call couples who rely on the rhythm method or withdrawal? A: Parents.)

Then I’d suggest the spreading of STDs is mostly caused by a lack of knowledge about the symptoms and specific ways to spread various diseases - e.g., are those red bumps caused by shaving or by an STD? Do condoms protect against disease X?

This isn’t the kind of knowledge that can only be gained through life experience or deep contemplation; it’s the kind of knowledge that can be photocopied and handed out on street corners. It’s far less complicated than a lot of subjects included in the average high school biology class.

It’s common where I live, at least - I moved to the area in 4th grade, and there was sex education in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th grades. I’m not familiar with the quality of education in other areas; I’ll admit that the policies I’ve suggested probably wouldn’t work unless the quality of sex education were much higher and more consistent.

But as long as I’m making sweeping changes to “statutory rape” laws, why not demand quality sex education as well?

Personally, I’m just as appalled that anyone would want to convict an innocent person of a sex offense, especially considering the consequences of the conviction: jail time, lost job opportunities, having to register whenever you move and tell the neighbors you’re a sex offender, and the permanent stigma of a crime so many people consider evil.

The idea that someone who has never harmed a soul should have to go through all that, simply because ignoring the facts of each case makes it easier and cheaper to catch actual offenders, disheartens me to no end. I’d say the people who call that justice are the crazy ones.

Actually, I do find most of what I’ve defended here to be icky - but I don’t let that cloud my judgment.

I just don’t think you can make a free choice when the implication of “if you say no, forget about that raise/grade/spot on the starting lineup” is constantly in the background. And like I said, age isn’t a factor; I’d be just as suspicious of a 30-year-old employer propositioning a 30-year-old employee as I would a 30-year-old coach propositioning a 17-year-old student.

119

If I may make a quick comment, the major issue of this thread (which took me two hours to read through fully) has been whether minors are able to make informed decisions about sex and therefor able to give consent. The problem is, adults in any age range from 20 onto 100 are unable to make informed decisions as well. Take the hypothetical situation in which a woman suddenly finds the man she’s been dating for a few months unattractive, whether physically or habits, or emotions, etc. No one would ever consider their sexual activity to be rape. My point is, why suggest minors don’t have the ability, when adults do not either?

Just a thought.

120

I find the opposition to the statutory rape laws incredible.

Maybe I’m oversimplifying but, as a youngster, my parents and older relatives and friends have encouraged me to try many many things that I didn’t want to do or thought better of at the time- stick my head under the water, eat something that looked godawful-nasty, or even taking shots of liquor (which I was afraid of at first!). There’s no denying that sort of influence. If a 20-something trusted family friend takes it in his mind to convince a 13 yr old to do almost ANYTHING, no matter how rational the kid may be, there will still never be an equal balance of influence there.

When it’s something that can be as drastically life-or-death as becoming pregnant or catching AIDS, it’s not a light issue. Frankly, I’d rather see some sexually-frustrated 14 yr old girls moaning about their virginity than pregnant b/c they didn’t know how to say no. Ask anyone who waited (even unintentionally) a couple of years to have sex- IT’S NOT HARMFUL TO WAIT. THEY’LL LIVE. At the very least, it teaches self-control.

My bottom line:
Weigh the consequences here- a minor has sex with an older man or woman. At the very worst, said minor was coerced emotionally or physically to have sex, and could wind up emotionally scarred or permanently harmed physically, with STDs or pregnant. Now say the older party thinks better of it. The worst that happens in this case is that both parties might feel sexually frusterated for a while. Big honking deal. Personally, I’d rather err on the side of caution. This isn’t a religious thing, it’s a common sense thing. And since a jury can’t be present at every encounter with a minor deciding whether or not the minor is mature enough to make the decision, it seems sensical enough to, again, for the laws to err on the side of caution.

There’s no “right” to instant sexual gratification, or even prolonged sexual gratification. Plus, there’s no “right” to have sex with anyone you want. We aren’t infringing on an 18 yr old’s “freedom” if we tell him he can’t have sex with a minor. That’s just dumb.