# Waging Peace - What if the Amish were in charge of the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2006, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617 "2006-10-16T12:35:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/1 "2006-10-16T12:35:17Z")
_Difficulty - No buggy-bomb jokes…_ Sojo.net is one of my favorite websites. It is a great source for information on the Christian Social Justice movement. In a blog related to that site, Diana Butler Bass posted an interesting article. “[What if the Amish were in Charge of the War on Terror](http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2006/10/diana-butler-bass-what-if-amish-were.html)?”. She draws parrallels between the horrid murders of the school girls in Amish PA and the attacks of September 11 . That communities response to the evil visited on them is truly humbling. From the article: > [@](#): > > First, some elders visited Marie Roberts, the wife of the murderer, to offer forgiveness. Then, the families of the slain girls invited the widow to their own children’s funerals. Next, they requested that all relief monies intended for Amish families be shared with Roberts and her children. And, finally, in an astonishing act of reconciliation, more than 30 members of the Amish community attended the funeral of the killer. She then extrapolates their response to what they would have done on September 12, 2001. How would our nation, our world, be different if we actively waged peace? Would we have been overrun by the Islamic horde? Would we be sitting among ashes and cinders? Or would we have moved toward a more peaceful co-existance with those today we call our “enemy”? It is a pretty short article and I encourage you to read it before you respond. It almost seems better to die waging peace than to live waging war. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/2 "2006-10-16T13:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] It almost seems better to die waging peace than to live waging war. [/QUOTE] I don’t agree. I think there are things worth fighting for, worth killing others to protect. I respect the position of the pacifist, but I don’t share it. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/3 "2006-10-16T13:42:00Z")
First off, the US was in contact with members of the Bin Laden family, some of whom were here, cleared from being security risks, and allowed to go their way. (Some have read conspiratorial meanings into this, btw). Second, the anti-Amish shooter’s family were among his psychological victims. They weren’t collaborators with him. It is good & right for the Amish to offer their aid & comfort to them. Third, Christ’s “pacifist” commands are for the individual not to retaliate against personal insult; not for people to abdicate responsibility to protect the weak from attack from the strong. Fourth, it’s easy to proclaim forgiveness when the only assailant is dead. I’m not ABSOLUTELY sure about Amish beliefs, but I’d bet that those Amish who speak of forgiving him also believe he is burning in Hell right now (and rightly so)… there may be some differences with that in Mennonite circles. If the Amish or Gahndi or any full pacifist were in charge of the “War on Terror”, well, get ready to kiss the Quran & salute the Crescent. Quote: Originally Posted by newcrasher It almost seems better to die waging peace than to live waging war. That’s your right. It’s mine to keep my gun clean & ready. (That is, if I had a gun that I did keep ready.) ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/4 "2006-10-16T13:42:13Z")
The essential problem is one of scale - I can offer forgiveness of wrongs committed against me, and the leaders of a small, closely-knit, like-minded community such as this Amish community can reasonably offer forgiveness on behalf of those who have been wronged, but could anyone properly represent the USA in such a manner post Sept 11? Such national gestures are possible - Mandela’s response to the white community after being released from captivity, leading to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and how that was taken to heart by the black people of South Africa, is one that touched me personally - but very rare (at least rare in being successful). Grim ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/5 "2006-10-16T13:46:05Z")
I sincerely doubt that a pacifist approach can prevent further acts of violence. But I think the healing of this community will be quicker and more complete than ours as a nation post-9/11. Forgiveness is just as vital for the forgiver than it is for the forgiven. Perhaps more so, ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/6 "2006-10-16T14:03:45Z")
Oh, and I should note that a nation that acted at all times like the Amish would be far, far less likely to attract acts of terrorism than the actual US is. They’d also be riper for outright conquest, at least in the days where the international community was more likely to let that kind of thing pass. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/7 "2006-10-16T14:41:50Z")
It’s easy to forgive dead enemies. The living ones, though, are more of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/8 "2006-10-16T14:48:32Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Fourth, it’s easy to proclaim forgiveness when the only assailant is dead. I’m not ABSOLUTELY sure about Amish beliefs, but I’d bet that those Amish who speak of forgiving him also believe he is burning in Hell right now (and rightly so)… there may be some differences with that in Mennonite circles. [/QUOTE] I think you might lose that bet. From this [Amish FAQ](http://www.800padutch.com/amishfaith.shtml): > [@](#): > > **“Do the Amish look upon the rest of society, those who are not of an Anabaptist tradition, as heathen?”** > “The Amish have deliberately made decisions as to what will or will not be allowed among members of the Amish community. The Amish do not pass judgment on outsiders.” ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/9 "2006-10-16T16:07:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I think you might lose that bet. From this [Amish FAQ](http://www.800padutch.com/amishfaith.shtml): [/QUOTE] I’m not speaking of how they may consider the fate of him as a non-Anabaptist, but the fate of him as a child-murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/10 "2006-10-16T16:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] I sincerely doubt that a pacifist approach can prevent further acts of violence. [/QUOTE] Perhaps. But it is quite clear that violence does not itself necessarily prevent further acts of violence. The U.S. as the world’s bully has not been effective as a strategy in deterring terrorism. If anything, the Iraq War has [exacerbated](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/AR2006092301130.html) the hatred of the extremists, especially those who breed terrorists. Americans are not safer now than we were six years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/11 "2006-10-16T16:49:55Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I’m not speaking of how they may consider the fate of him as a non-Anabaptist, but the fate of him as a child-murderer. [/QUOTE] I’d imagine that at least some of them believe that he was mentally ill and than an understanding, forgiving God wouldn’t hold actions against him which were done while he was insane. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/12 "2006-10-16T17:09:39Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] It’s easy to forgive dead enemies. The living ones, though, are more of a problem. [/QUOTE] I can’t decide if that quote is worthy of Gandhi or Atilla the Hun. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/13 "2006-10-16T17:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I’d imagine that at least some of them believe that he was mentally ill and than an understanding, forgiving God wouldn’t hold actions against him which were done while he was insane. [/QUOTE] Maybe, maybe not- btw, the Dorecht Confession of 1632, which is pretty standard for Amish & Mennonite believers, does teach eternal damnation ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/14 "2006-10-16T17:51:08Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] I sincerely doubt that a pacifist approach can prevent further acts of violence. [/QUOTE] This is the most important point to me. In a case with a one-off attack, an approach such as this is excellent. If there is a campaign or series of attacks however, taking a pacifistic approach is not conducive to stopping those attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/15 "2006-10-16T17:56:23Z")
And Alessan goes to the point. If all the terrorists were dead, sure, forgive them, what could it hurt? Except what do you do with the other terrorists who aren’t dead? Roberts wasn’t part of a little girl murdering club, he was a lone nut. But what if there were such a little girl murdering club still active, it’s members pledged to kill more little girls? Are you going to forgive them, turn the other cheek, and do nothing as they gather their weapons? What about when they walk into the school? Are you going to stand there when they pull out a gun and start shooting? Well, there is such a little girl murdering club out there, and they are gathering weapons, and they do hope to murder more little girls if they can. So what should our response be to the existance of such people? Do nothing and pray for them? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/16 "2006-10-16T22:32:05Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I’m not speaking of how they may consider the fate of him as a non-Anabaptist, but the fate of him as a child-murderer. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure it makes a lot of difference; from what I’m reading, the proper view of the state of grace of any individual other than onesself seems to be _null_ - simply unexplored. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/17 "2006-10-16T22:43:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Are you going to forgive them, turn the other cheek, and do nothing as they gather their weapons? What about when they walk into the school? Are you going to stand there when they pull out a gun and start shooting? AFAIK, no pacifist organization says that you’re not supposed to try to prevent violence or protect the weak from violence. In fact, according to the principles of Gandhian nonviolence, you **must** do so, even at the risk of your own safety or life. You’re just not allowed to commit violence yourself in the process. Thus it would be perfectly acceptable for a group of pacifists to surround a school shooter to block his line of fire and to take his gun away from him. Some of them would surely get shot, but with luck they would save the other intended victims. (As I understand it, that was the rationale behind the offer of one of the murdered Amish girls to let the killer shoot her first: she thought there was a chance that he wouldn’t want to go on shooting after murdering his first victim, so the other girls might survive as a result.) The thing is, for nonviolent resistance to work, the nonviolent resisters and their supporters usually have to greatly outnumber the violent attackers and their supporters. Nonviolent resistance has a “network externality” effect: the more people who practice and support it, the more effective it is. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/18 "2006-10-16T22:52:51Z")
Again from the FAQ I linked above: > [@](#): > > **“I understand your belief in nonresistance and pacifism. Does this principal extend to personal situations where you are confronted with imminent evil - say a known murderer confronting you and your family in your home? Can you use force to preserve your life in this situation? To what extent? What is the Biblical basis for your position?”** > > "Both Amish and Mennonites are committed to a lifestyle of peace and non-violence. Yes, this pervades every aspect of life. However, no one can predict with certainty how anyone would really react to an absolutely unprecedented crisis such as described above. Emotions as well as thoughts are involved and the situation is personalized. Having said this, we would hope that as people who have practiced a lifestyle of peace, we would not resort to force and violence in a crisis situation such as the one described. > We must briefly make several points: > > 1. There is no assurance that use of force would save my life or the life of my family if confronted by an attacker. > 2. We could recall many accounts of unhoped for deliverances, whether by mediation, nature, or divine Providence, when Christians refused to use force when confronted by an attacker. > 3. If the result is death at the hands of the attacker, so be it; death is not threatening to us as Christians. Hopefully the attacker will have at least had a glimpse of the love of Christ in our nonviolent response. > 4. The Christian does not choose a nonviolent approach to conflict because of assurance it will always work; rather the Christian chooses this approach because of his/her commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord. > > The analogy to war in the situation described above tends to break down when we think of the vast preparations for war – accumulation of weapons, training of the military, etc. War is planned and seldom is aggression so clearly defined with the defense staying on its home turf. > Some of the Biblical references for peace and non-resistance are: Matthew 5:38-48; John 18:36; Romans 12:18-21; and I Corinthians 6:18." So (assuming this FAQ is the truthful record it claims to be), it sounds like they simply would(should) not act violently, even under the most extreme provocation. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/19 "2006-10-16T23:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] A(As I understand it, that was the rationale behind the offer of one of the murdered Amish girls to let the killer shoot her first: she thought there was a chance that he wouldn’t want to go on shooting after murdering his first victim, so the other girls might survive as a result.) [/QUOTE] Forgive me, but how do we know that? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617/20 "2006-10-16T23:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] How would our nation, our world, be different if we actively waged peace? [/QUOTE] 655,000 Iraqis would still be alive? You can learn from history: Gandhi successfully gained India independence from the British using non-violence. Northern Ireland saw terrorist violence for decades. The British used an army, the SAS, courts with only judges and highly dubious interrogation techniques. What finally worked was negotiation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waging-peace-what-if-the-amish-were-in-charge-of-the-war-on-terror/376617.md?page=2)