# Wagner group: what does the name refer to? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098 "2023-06-25T22:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/1 "2023-06-25T22:49:13Z")
Does anyone know where the name comes from. It seems unlikely to be a reference to the composer, but I have no idea where it comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/2 "2023-06-25T23:09:46Z")
“Wagner” is the callsign of its cofounder, who supposedly took it in reference to the composer. > **[Dmitry Utkin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin)** > > Dmitry Valerievich Utkin (Russian: Дмитрий Валерьевич Уткин; Ukrainian: Дмитро Валерійович Уткін; born 11 June 1970) is a Ukrainian-born Russian army officer. He served as a special forces officer in the GRU, where he held a rank of lieutenant colonel. He is alleged to have founded the Wagner Group, with his own call-sign reportedly being Wagner. Utkin has received four Orders of Courage of Russia. > Utkin was born on 11 June 1970 in the village of Smoline in Kirovohrad Oblast, in the Ukrainian... ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/3 "2023-06-25T23:45:43Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > It seems unlikely to be a reference to the composer Why? I always assumed it was a reference to the composure, who is infamous for having antisemitic and racist viewpoints. Seems perfect for a group like this. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/4 "2023-06-25T23:51:12Z")
I thought the name might be related to the composer. It’s weird, given that Putin and his people talk so much about fighting supposed neo-Nazis in Ukraine, that Russians are so fond of Nazi or Nazi-adjacent symbols. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/5 "2023-06-26T00:50:36Z")
More to the point, IM(limited)E Russian and other Slavic nation’s soldiers seem to have “Flight of the Valkyries” playing in their heads non-stop. It’s like a personal theme song for each of them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/6 "2023-06-26T01:57:32Z")
Mandatory photo of Dmitry in all his glory: [![](https://newlinesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/utkin-tattoos.jpg) ](https://newlinesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/utkin-tattoos.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/7 "2023-06-26T02:59:17Z")
He looks… cuddly. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/8 "2023-06-26T06:47:39Z")
I know a member of the family that founded this company, quite a substantial concern locally: > **[Wagners](https://www.wagner.com.au/)** > > Wagners was founded by brothers John, Denis, Neill, Joe and their father Henry to continue a long held family tradition in concrete, quarry, and transport enterprises.Business commenced in Toowoomba in 1989, the family focused on creating a... They must be quite pissed off about now. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/9 "2023-06-26T12:49:52Z")
I remember reading of an American WWII soldier named “Hitler”. An interviewer asked him if he’d ever considered changing his name, and he said “Let that sonofabitch change his”. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/10 "2023-06-26T14:47:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > an American WWII soldier named “Hitler” [He was not just named"Hitler", he was his (half-) nephew.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stuart-Houston?wprov=sfla1) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/11 "2023-06-26T14:49:13Z")
So that’s what Flea is doing these days. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/12 "2023-06-26T15:53:23Z")
Schicklegrüber had a half brother in the British military too, iirc. Wagner group also made excellent cast iron frying pans and cookware, they cast their net pretty wide! ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/13 "2023-06-26T16:13:28Z")
Don’t forget their paint sprayers… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/14 "2023-06-26T16:28:38Z")
It’s not just a brutal, amoral paramilitary floor wax, it’s also a dessert topping. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/15 "2023-06-26T20:24:22Z")
I now wonder if the Russians pronounce “Wagner” more or less as an English speaker would, as a German speaker would, or on some other interesting way? Heck, I suppose RP English and American Standard English would differ on a broad “a” or short “a” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/16 "2023-06-26T20:27:18Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Schicklegrüber had a half brother in the British military too, iirc. I don’t think so. Adolf Hitler had two adult half-siblings, Alois and Angela (from his father’s second marriage) and an adult sister Paula (from his father’s third marriage). (There were four other siblings who died in childhood.) Alois was born in 1882. He was living in Germany in 1914 but he as far as I can find he didn’t serve in the war (he would have been 32 when the war started). Alois was not particularly close to Adolf and didn’t join the Nazi party or participate in politics. But he did make money off of his brother’s name. Alois died in 1956. Alois had two sons, William (from his first marriage) and Heinrich “Heinz” (from his second marriage. William’s mother was Irish and William grew up in the UK. He later immigrated to America and served in the United States Navy during WWII. William died in 1987. Heinz grew up in Germany and served in the Wehrmacht during WWII. Heinz died during the war in 1942. Adolf’s sister Paula never married and had no children. She died in 1960 (the last surviving sibling of Adolf Hitler). Adolf’s half-sister Angela married and had three children; Leo, Angela “Geli”, and Elfriede “Friedl”. Angela died in 1949. Leo served in the Luftwaffe during WWII and died in 1977. Geli died in 1931. Friedl died in 1993 (the last surviving niece of Adolf Hitler). As for Adolf Hitler’s grandnephews; Friedl has a son Heiner (born 1945), Leo had a son Peter (born 1931), and William had four sons, Alexander (born 1949), Louis (born 1951), Howard (born 1957), and Brian (born 1965). Howard died in 1989. The other five are, as far as I can tell, still alive and are therefore Adolf Hitler’s closest living relatives. None of them have had children. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/17 "2023-06-26T20:44:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > None of them have had children. I wonder if they have made a pact to have no offspring and let the family die out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/18 "2023-06-26T21:12:06Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I wonder if they have made a pact to have no offspring and let the family die out. There’s a long-standing rumor to that effect but they have reportedly denied it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/19 "2023-06-26T21:26:37Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I now wonder if the Russians pronounce “Wagner” more or less as an English speaker would, as a German speaker would, or on some other interesting way? I would imagine as in German, as I don’t think there’s a “w” (as in English) sound in Russian. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/20 "2023-06-26T21:29:29Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s weird, given that Putin and his people talk so much about fighting supposed neo-Nazis in Ukraine, that Russians are so fond of Nazi or Nazi-adjacent symbols. Russians care nothing about the actual definition of Nazism. To them, “Nazi” means “anyone opposing us.” Many Russian soldiers & gangsters proudly wear Nazi tattoos, regalia, etc. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098.md?page=2)