# Wagner group: what does the name refer to? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098 "2023-06-25T22:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/41 "2023-06-27T08:42:27Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I now wonder if the Russians pronounce “Wagner” more or less as an English speaker would, as a German speaker would, or on some other interesting way? You can hear people shouting “Wagner Group” on this video: > **[Prigozhin And Wagner Group Leave Rostov-On-Don](https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-wagner-prigozhin/32474883.html)** > > A video obtained by Reuters shows Yevgeny Prigozhin, chief of the mercenary Wagner Group, being greeted by locals as he left Rostov-on-Don in the back seat of a car late on June 24. Supporters gathered around Wagner tanks and trucks withdrawing from... ---
**Author:** ![Feurmann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/779978/32.png) [@Feurmann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feurmann)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/42 "2023-06-27T11:07:25Z")
Taking up the original question regarding Richard Wagner: he certainly had anti-Semitic and racist views to a degree unusual even for his time. However, it’s worth pointing out that there are no references to Jews or Judaism in any of his 13 operas. This is not to to diminish or downplay his attitudes, which are definitely unacceptable and disgusting today. But they did not make their way into his music dramas. The closest he comes, IMHO, is the finale of Meistersinger, where everyone comes together in a paean against pernicious foreign influences and in favour of holy Roman art. But of Jews, there’s not a murmur. The entire association of Wagner with Nazi ideology is based on the facts that a) Hitler loved his music; b) Hitler was besties with Wagner’s daughter-in-law Winifred (a fervent anti-Semite, who made Wagner’s views seem moderate); and c) the Wagner clan used to roll out the red carpet for Hitler and all the top Nazis at Bayreuth. (The latter were mostly bored stiff at being dragged along to all these 4 or 5 hour operas.) But to lay this at Richard Wagner’s feet is irrational and unfair. He had long since gone to his reward when these things started happening. People are probably going to accuse me of Holocaust denialism, or something. The association of Wagner’s music with the Third Reich is a deep one for many Jews. There is still an unofficial ban on his music in Israel; something Daniel Barenboim, who is as Jewish as they come, has long been trying to overcome. His music is so much greater than the man. If people don’t want to listen to it because of his views, that’s their choice. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/43 "2023-06-27T11:45:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Ensign Chekov would like to have a word with you: Probably some sort of hypercorrection or mix-up. I looked up the Russian IPA chart and didn’t see anything for /w/ there, and looking up /w/, I don’t see any examples from Russian there. I hear the V pronounced as W a good bit from ESL speakers from certain countries, even if their language has both a sound like our W and V (like in German, English Ws will get pronounced like V with some speakers, but English Vs will get pronounced like Ws. A German friend of mine has pretty much perfect English, but she still gets Vs and Ws mixed-up in pronunciation.) ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/44 "2023-06-27T12:05:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I now wonder if the Russians pronounce “Wagner” more or less as an English speaker would, as a German speaker would, or on some other interesting way? From the clips that appear on TV news, it sounds a bit more like what the French might say: “Vahg-nair”, where in both German and English, the second syllable would be just an “uh” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/45 "2023-06-27T12:36:53Z")
[Moderating] I think the factual question has been answered here, and most of what’s going on here isn’t FQ material any more, so this is closed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098/46 "2023-06-27T12:37:05Z")
Closed on June 27, 2023, 12:37pm UTC [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wagner-group-what-does-the-name-refer-to/986098.md?page=2)