# Wait a Sec.... Questions RE Star Trek: TOS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 27, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182 "2009-06-27T16:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/121 "2009-07-02T02:51:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, I am cursing fate, the hampsters and the loss of Australia (or was it New Zealand?) that you beat me by three minutes. I don’t type _that_ slowly. 🙂 Don’t fret yourself. I have agents everywhere, and some of them are Vulcans. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/122 "2009-07-02T12:03:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There is a Trek novel, Yesterday’s Son, with just that premise. I believe A.C. Crispin wrote it (which is another way fo saying don’t read it yourself except for money). > > I am greatly disturbed that I can recall that effortlessly but not the atomic mass of actinium. Hell, I can’t remember my kids’ names most days… I am more put out re the ST novel based on what I thought was a brilliant idea of mine. I can smell the money, dammit! Alas, I am too late. \ **Mr Plant** –surely you are an ST:TOS fan, too? Or are you merely taking dictation from the Mrs? 🙂 I have been spending some of my time happily ordering used ST:TOS novels from Amazon. Most of them are about 50 cents, plus postage. One just came from UK! That’s about all I’m willing to pay for them, btw. And MOST of the authors are NOT good writers (I’ve noticed a certain reliance on reiterating the plots of episodes as filler–even down to the dialogue–I’m looking at YOU, David George III.) Still, they make for good summer reads and they require nothing from me. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/123 "2009-07-02T12:33:27Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > **Mr Plant** –surely you are an ST:TOS fan, too? Well, yes, but I’m _married,_ you see. Skald: I have agents in two or three places, but all of them are hampsters. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/124 "2009-07-02T12:56:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Skald: I have agents in two or three places, but all of them are hampsters. > :dubious: Hey, now! No shilling for [Disney](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436339/)! ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/125 "2009-07-02T14:10:25Z")
[quote=“eleanorigby, post:100, topic:501182”] Yes! The only other occasion I’ve seen that rivals it is the Lamchop Show with Shari Lewis (the one in the 80s). Talk about soft focus!/QUOTE] Yeah, I guess the vaseline-lens look made a minor comeback in the 80’s. Wasn’t “Moonlighting” (where Bruce Willis got his start) also sponsored by Brylcream (“For the lens look you want”)? But ST TOS definitely used a big supply, and not just for Joan Collins. Pretty much any time a female was supposed to be in any way romantically attractive, things got gooey. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/126 "2009-07-02T14:48:05Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Pretty much any time a female was supposed to be in any way romantically attractive, things got gooey. And the female looked all fuzzy and out of focus too! _rimshot!_ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/127 "2009-07-02T16:31:05Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think you did. It was more of a “what are the odds that the same freaky thing would happen to two ships with the same name” look. Or perhaps a “Holy Zeus! Does this mean we’re going to have the same sort of freaky adventures of Jim Kirk? 'Cause if it does I want a transfer. Except–wait—I’m more like Kirk than you are, so this probably means I’ll be having lots of sex. Nevermind.” > > Picard’s look, of course, was easier translate: “You, Number One, are an idiot.” I read it as “3rd show, and already they’ve run out of new ideas? We’re in trouble.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/128 "2009-07-02T16:40:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > So why is it in the episode with Spock’s parents (“Journey to Babel,” I think) that Sulu suddenly is not deemed competent to command the ship durin a battle? That Kirk feels it is so important that he has to get off his sickbed to fool Spock into thinking he’s taken command? Admittedly he intends to hand things off to Scott as soon as Spock is giving blood to his father, but he doesn’t do so because the Orions attack. > > What changed? > > (Yes, I know the answer is “plot requirements.”) In “Errand of Mercy” Kirk didn’t really know a battle was brewing when he beamed down, and then couldn’t beam back up again. I always thought that at the end, when Sulu was about to go into battle, the Enterprise was part of a larger battle force about to engage a large Klingon force. In “Journey to Babel,” Kirk pretended that he was fine so that Spock would leave the bridge to save his father. Spock would have never left if Sulu was going to take over. Before Kirk could leave, the Orions attacked, and he sure wasn’t going to split in the middle of a battle. Macho thing, playing through an injury, if nothing else. Plus he was better at coming up with a tricky tactic than Sulu. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/129 "2009-07-02T17:52:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In “Errand of Mercy” Kirk didn’t really know a battle was brewing when he beamed down, and then couldn’t beam back up again. I always thought that at the end, when Sulu was about to go into battle, the Enterprise was part of a larger battle force about to engage a large Klingon force. I think I said that Sulu as joining a larger battle group. My point is that they were in a situation in which they knew battle might come at any time, and that he left Sulu in command knowing that. Admittedly this was early in the series. Later on they were better about separating the leads–Kirk still led most landing parties, and Spock generally stayed on board ship. Still problematic, but easily fanwankable: either Kirk felt that the away missions were generally the more important parts of any given mission and did not wish to delegate them, or he felt that he and Spock were equally well qualified to command the ship in a crisis but that he, Kirk, had better interpersonal skills and thus would do better on most away missions. In a non-fiction book about TOS, David Gerrold (scriptwriter for “The Trouble with Tribbles”) asserted that Spock got left on board in most episodes because he got too powerful. He’s much stronger than Kirk; he’s a hyper-genius; he can read minds and even compel people to do his bidding FROM A DISTANCE. Dramatically he presents a problem if Kirk is going to be the protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/130 "2009-07-02T18:10:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In “Errand of Mercy” Kirk didn’t really know a battle was brewing when he beamed down, and then couldn’t beam back up again. I always thought that at the end, when Sulu was about to go into battle, the Enterprise was part of a larger battle force about to engage a large Klingon force. > > In “Journey to Babel,” Kirk pretended that he was fine so that Spock would leave the bridge to save his father. Spock would have never left if Sulu was going to take over. Before Kirk could leave, the Orions attacked, and he sure wasn’t going to split in the middle of a battle. Macho thing, playing through an injury, if nothing else. Plus he was better at coming up with a tricky tactic than Sulu. Plus I believe the whole line of thought in Spock’s mind is that his duty as second in command was to command the ship when the Captain is unable to and that no personal matter warrented him abdicating that command in a time of crisis even if the guy below him was qualified, though if I recall correctly I think Scotty’s name was mentioned as his replacement. Now if you want to talk about something that bugs me, it’s Commadores! In “The Deadly years” we have a Commadore so inept he thinks its ok to cut through the neutral zone (Romulan in those days there was no Klingon neutral zone) … … :dubious: …:eek:… WHAT!!! how can you rise to that rank AND NOT KNOW A DAMNED THING ABOUT BASIC DIPLOMATIC NO NOS Even then, once he is under fire just sits there slack jawed. I mean even a “get us the hell out of here” would have at least redeemed him a little. Sulu should have just done what came natural and let the Commadore know he wouldn’t say anything if the Commadore said nothing. Then there is my favorite: Matt Decker. Can that guy chew scenery! He is in command of a ship. He is attacked by a Monsterious device that he hinmself notes chops planets to rubble to use as fuel. He sends his crew to a planet that is in the path of the thing. Then tries to kill a second crew by repeatedly blasting at the thing which failed three times. This guy had a ship of his own… why he shows no command skills whatsoever except sitting tin the big chair looking like a pompus ass. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/131 "2009-07-02T18:18:39Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Now if you want to talk about something that bugs me, it’s Commadores! In “The Deadly years” we have a Commadore so inept he thinks its ok to cut through the neutral zone (Romulan in those days there was no Klingon neutral zone) > > … > > … > > :dubious: > > …:eek:… WHAT!!! how can you rise to that rank AND NOT KNOW A > DAMNED THING ABOUT BASIC DIPLOMATIC NO NOS > > Even then, once he is under fire just sits there slack jawed. I mean even a “get us the hell out of here” would have at least redeemed him a little. Sulu should have just done what came natural and let the Commadore know he wouldn’t say anything if the Commadore said nothing. They made a point of noting that everyone–even Chekov, who was still in training pants–knew this was a bad idea, and that this particular Commodore had no field experience. I think he came up through the ranks in Quartermaster’s Corps. Also, I think that by the times the Romulans revealed themselves the Enterprise was englobed, and simply running was not an option. The only reason Kirk’s strategem worked is that the Romulans, puzzled by what was happening, thought that the initial trespass itself a ploy to trick them into committing an act of war and simultaneously test out a devastating weapon, as that is exactly what they would have done if they had had such a device. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/132 "2009-07-02T18:57:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > They made a point of noting that everyone–even Chekov, who was still in training pants–knew this was a bad idea, and that this particular Commodore had no field experience. I think he came up through the ranks in Quartermaster’s Corps. Also, I think that by the times the Romulans revealed themselves the Enterprise was englobed, and simply running was not an option. The only reason Kirk’s strategem worked is that the Romulans, puzzled by what was happening, thought that the initial trespass itself a ploy to trick them into committing an act of war and simultaneously test out a devastating weapon, as that is exactly what they would have done if they had had such a device. Field experience isn’t necessarily needed when the rule you are breaking should be obvious to anyone. Let’s say he rose up from Quartermaster corps as you suggested why give him any ability to run a ship due only to rank? It should, in that case, only be a title only! If all Commadores save Decker are mere pencil pushers why give theme a chance to destory valuable crews and vessels due to their inexperience? I mean we know McCoy has a high rank but no one including himself would dare suggest he should run the ship if the other officers of equal or higher rank aren’t able to… (I’m looking at you STNG.. Crusher in charge of the bridge indeed!) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/133 "2009-07-02T20:03:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think I said that Sulu as joining a larger battle group. My point is that they were in a situation in which they knew battle might come at any time, and that he left Sulu in command knowing that. I’m not sure he knew that. IIRC, he didn’t even know the Klingons were on the planet when they beamed down. > [@](#): > > Admittedly this was early in the series. Later on they were better about separating the leads–Kirk still led most landing parties, and Spock generally stayed on board ship. Still problematic, but easily fanwankable: either Kirk felt that the away missions were generally the more important parts of any given mission and did not wish to delegate them, or he felt that he and Spock were equally well qualified to command the ship in a crisis but that he, Kirk, had better interpersonal skills and thus would do better on most away missions. > > In a non-fiction book about TOS, David Gerrold (scriptwriter for “The Trouble with Tribbles”) asserted that Spock got left on board in most episodes because he got too powerful. He’s much stronger than Kirk; he’s a hyper-genius; he can read minds and even compel people to do his bidding FROM A DISTANCE. Dramatically he presents a problem if Kirk is going to be the protagonist. They got roundly criticized, at the time, for having Kirk be on the landing parties. I think that is why Picard stayed on the ship in TNG. I’m rewatching them from the beginning, and I think it hurt the show that the lead so often didn’t drive the resolution of the plot. You can also explain Kirk being on away missions by saying that StarFleet worked that way back then. In “The Cage” Pike mentions being in the middle of a fight on a planet. I seem to remember Spock being on most landing parties, no doubt because the Kirk/Spock interaction was a lot of the show. A large number of plots, especially in the later series, involved Kirk, Spock, and often McCoy beaming down, the Enterprise being neutralized by some alien, and they doing all the work while Scotty tries to break the ship free. I never considered Spock a superman, more of a deus ex machina, able to come up with intermix equations or computers built using stone knives and bearskins at the drop of a Vulcan hat. Very early on there was the question of why Spock, smarter than Kirk in every way, wasn’t Captain. “The Galileo Seven” addressed that issue. Even in the very beginning of the series Kirk beat Spock in chess all the time, which explains why Kirk was Captain and maybe why Spock Prime was such a Kirk hero-worshipper in the movie. I read both of Gerrold’s ST books long before there was a TNG or even a movie, and I thought at the time that though he was technically correct about how unrealistic much of TOS was, it was a better show dramatically for it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/134 "2009-07-02T20:11:38Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Now if you want to talk about something that bugs me, it’s Commadores! In “The Deadly years” we have a Commadore so inept he thinks its ok to cut through the neutral zone (Romulan in those days there was no Klingon neutral zone) > > … > > … > > :dubious: > > …:eek:… WHAT!!! how can you rise to that rank AND NOT KNOW A > DAMNED THING ABOUT BASIC DIPLOMATIC NO NOS I agree, but I think the point was that the guy had never commanded a ship and so was clueless. But the neutral zone was a McGuffin - when Kirk got young again he popped in and came up with a solution in about five seconds, which reduces the difficulty of their position in retrospect. > [@](#): > > Then there is my favorite: Matt Decker. Can that guy chew scenery! He is in command of a ship. He is attacked by a Monsterious device that he hinmself notes > chops planets to rubble to use as fuel. He sends his crew to a planet that is in the path of the thing. Then tries to kill a second crew by repeatedly blasting at the thing which failed three times. This guy had a ship of his own… why he shows no command skills whatsoever except sitting tin the big chair looking like a pompus ass. Someone posted a link to comments by Norman Spinrad on this show. William Windom was not supposed to originally play Decker, and the part was supposed to be more of an Ahab of space, with the Doomsday machine being Moby Dick. So Decker clearly had more or less gone insane. It might be unfair, but I always thought that Windom, and actor I love, had seen Shatner chew the scenery and decided to give him a lesson on how to really chew the scenery. I love his business with the little computer cartridge while he’s sitting on the bridge also. That’s one of my favorite Treks ever. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/135 "2009-07-02T20:14:56Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Field experience isn’t necessarily needed when the rule you are breaking should be obvious to anyone. > > Let’s say he rose up from Quartermaster corps as you suggested why give him any ability to run a ship due only to rank? It should, in that case, only be a title only! If all Commadores save Decker are mere pencil pushers why give theme a chance to destory valuable crews and vessels due to their inexperience? > > I mean we know McCoy has a high rank but no one including himself would dare suggest he should run the ship if the other officers of equal or higher rank aren’t able to… (I’m looking at you STNG.. Crusher in charge of the bridge indeed!) It’s another example of how the writing in the later years wasn’t up to the writing early on. This guy was a stereotype of the brass hat moron. On the other hand in the first season episode “A Taste of Armageddon” we have an ambassador who seems equally clueless in the beginning of the show, but by the end shows that he didn’t get promoted to his rank through nepotism. A much better character. ---
**Author:** ![Sycorax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Sycorax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sycorax)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/136 "2009-07-02T21:00:51Z")
I thought Scotty explained to Kirk that he had experimented with sending various items down, but the transporter malfunction (splitting the item in two) rendered them useless. Didn’t Sulu et al already have some kind of blanket made out of a shiny material? I figured this “space-age” blanket just wasn’t sufficient for the severity of the cold. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/137 "2009-07-02T22:02:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I seem to remember Spock being on most landing parties, no doubt because the Kirk/Spock interaction was a lot of the show. A large number of plots, especially in the later series, involved Kirk, Spock, and often McCoy beaming down, the Enterprise being neutralized by some alien, and they doing all the work while Scotty tries to break the ship free. > > I never considered Spock a superman, more of a deus ex machina, able to come up with intermix equations or computers built using stone knives and bearskins at the drop of a Vulcan hat. Very early on there was the question of why Spock, smarter than Kirk in every way, wasn’t Captain. “The Galileo Seven” addressed that issue. Even in the very beginning of the series Kirk beat Spock in chess all the time, which explains why Kirk was Captain and maybe why Spock Prime was such a Kirk hero-worshipper in the movie. I don’t think Kirk beat Spock ALL the time. I recall a specific instance, in “Where No Man Has Gone Before”–in which they refer to Kirk having won a game. I think they were both really good at chess, and Kirk was slightly better (at least on that occasion) at reading Spock than the reverse. But if one or the other ALWAYS won, they wouldn’t keep playing, simply because it would no longer be amusing. > [@](#): > > I read both of Gerrold’s ST books long before there was a TNG or even a movie, and I thought at the time that though he was technically correct about how unrealistic much of TOS was, it was a better show dramatically for it. Well, maybe. I think TNG was a better show overall, simply because it got longer to get the kinks out. TOS starts off a little rough, is wonderful by early in the first season and keeps it up all through the second, and generally sucks in the third. TNG is god-awful in the first season, fair to middling in the the second, damn good in the third, and in the (after finally getting rid of you know who) is great. By the 7the seventh season they were losing their way (though there’s plenty of good stuff in it), but they never reach their nadir of “Spock’s Brain”\*–not so much because of the writer’s talent as because they were planning on moving to movies and thus stopped the series just in time. \*Which never actually happened, by the way. The whole thing is a holonovel written by Tom Paris which accidentally found its way into the historical archives. Likewise “The Galileo Seven.” [QUOTE=Voyager] [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I think I said that Sulu as joining a larger battle group. My point is that they were in a situation in which they knew battle might come at any time, and that he left Sulu in command knowing that. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure he knew that. IIRC, he didn’t even know the Klingons were on the planet when they beamed down. [/QUOTE] Maybe. But if I recall aright, he had given Sulu specific orders what to do if the enemy showed up–to haul ass out of the system and not to attempt a rescue. When Sulu tells him the Klingons are about, Jim says “You already have your orders.” [QUOTE=kingpengvin] Field experience isn’t necessarily needed when the rule you are breaking should be obvious to anyone. Let’s say he rose up from Quartermaster corps as you suggested why give him any ability to run a ship due only to rank? It should, in that case, only be a title only! If all Commadores save Decker are mere pencil pushers why give theme a chance to destory valuable crews and vessels due to their inexperience? [/quote] Not every military position is a combat position. There’s plenty of captains in the real navy who have not commanded a ship–they may be in Intellgence or Engineering Design or whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/138 "2009-07-02T23:22:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t think Kirk beat Spock ALL the time. I recall a specific instance, in “Where No Man Has Gone Before”–in which they refer to Kirk having won a game. I think they were both really good at chess, and Kirk was slightly better (at least on that occasion) at reading Spock than the reverse. But if one or the other ALWAYS won, they wouldn’t keep playing, simply because it would no longer be amusing. Spock’s comment when he lost was that Kirk played illogically - which I think was the point. I don’t recall Spock ever winning, except against the messed up computer in “Court Martial.” Spock is very stubborn, and I can see him continue to play since logic dictates that he should win. > [@](#): > > Well, maybe. I think TNG was a better show overall, simply because it got longer to get the kinks out. TOS starts off a little rough, is wonderful by early in the first season and keeps it up all through the second, and generally sucks in the third. TNG is god-awful in the first season, fair to middling in the the second, damn good in the third, and in the (after finally getting rid of you know who) is great. By the 7the seventh season they were losing their way (though there’s plenty of good stuff in it), but they never reach their nadir of “Spock’s Brain”\*–not so much because of the writer’s talent as because they were planning on moving to movies and thus stopped the series just in time. I saw TOS when it first aired, which was when I was in high school, which might have been the perfect age to enjoy it. Sure the effects in TNG are better, sure the acting is kind of better, and sure it didn’t have a season where they just gave up even trying. But the delta between TOS and what went before (Lost in Space :eek: ) was much greater than the delta for TNG. I’m just not sure that if TNG had been the first thing aired, when it was aired, it would have ever inspired the devotion TOS did (and I wrote a letter to NBC demanding it got renewed. ) But like I said, I was probably the right age. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But if I recall aright, he had given Sulu specific orders what to do if the enemy showed up–to haul ass out of the system and not to attempt a rescue. When Sulu tells him the Klingons are about, Jim says “You already have your orders.” You remember correctly. > [@](#): > > Not every military position is a combat position. There’s plenty of captains in the real navy who have not commanded a ship–they may be in Intellgence or Engineering Design or whatnot. But would someone get promoted to a position like Commodore without field experience? I thought anyone destined for such a high rank got rotated through several jobs. Maybe Star Fleet is different, but I’d be surprised if someone there could get his ticket punched without deep space experience - for reasons all too evident in the story. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/139 "2009-07-02T23:34:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, maybe. I think TNG was a better show overall, simply because it got longer to get the kinks out. TOS starts off a little rough, is wonderful by early in the first season and keeps it up all through the second, and generally sucks in the third. TNG is god-awful in the first season, fair to middling in the the second, damn good in the third, and in the (after finally getting rid of you know who) is great. By the 7the seventh season they were losing their way (though there’s plenty of good stuff in it), but they never reach their nadir of “Spock’s Brain”\*–not so much because of the writer’s talent as because they were planning on moving to movies and thus stopped the series just in time. I tend to agree on your assesment of the shows, though I maintain that you cannot really compare the two because it’s apples and oranges. _Star Trek_ was a drama series with occasional comic overtones (and even occasional comic masterpieces: “A Piece of the Action”, “The Trouble With Tribbles”). _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ was not a drama series. Instead, it was more I think what Roddenberry had intended in the first place, that is, a look into the future through the mechanism of the adventures of a starship. With VERY few exceptions during its seven-year run, _TNG_ had little or no “drama” involved in the episodes. That, plus the whole switch to the A-story, B-story thing makes the latter show difficult to compare to its progeniture. A goodly portion of why _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ was loved was because they were edgier, returning the show more to the concept of a drama. I think you can more easily compare _DS9_ to the first series. And it should be noted that the first series did have some clunkers thrown in even after they hit their stride. “The Alternative Factor”, “The Apple”, and “The Omega Glory” all came during the latter first season or during the second season. And let us not forget that the excellent episode about tribbles was followed by the somewhat less excellent episode about quatloos. :rolleyes: And the third season did have some good shows in there, though they tended to worsen as the season crept on to finality. I thought “The Paradise Syndrome” was an excellent concept, though I think that in some ways, _TNG_ got it even better with “The Inner Light”. As a whole, I liked the first series better, but there is no question that it suffers from having preceded the other by some 20 years. I wish wish WISH they could redo the original series now that they have the special effects to make it pop, and the fan base to keep it on the air. Oh, sorry, just kinda rambling here. It’s nice to find someone else who sees the shows much as I do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182/140 "2009-07-02T23:43:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, maybe. I think TNG was a better show overall, simply because it got longer to get the kinks out. They stood on the heads of giants. And they were weenies, gawd dammit, weenies with better special effects. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Not every military position is a combat position. There’s plenty of captains in the real navy who have not commanded a ship–they may be in Intellgence or Engineering Design or whatnot. It was on the way to take command of a star base. Perhaps it was the equivalent of a bus station. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-a-sec-questions-re-star-trek-tos/501182.md?page=8)