# Wait. Is that how ancient Irish peoples said "deep blue waters"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 19, 2026, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983 "2026-10-19T23:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2026, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/1 "2026-10-19T23:59:49Z")
Gorm. Yes _Gorm._ Had a difficult crossword puzzle clue: Deep, blue waters (_gaeilge)._ The answer was Gorm. So, @Cecil_Adams are you saying Ed is _blue-less?_ Hmm 🤔 I suppose I’m happy he’s happy. ☺ ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/2 "2026-10-20T00:50:28Z")
Where’s this “ancient” coming from? Neither the clue nor the answer have any connotations of ancient-ness. _Gorm_ is the predominant word for “blue” in Irish. It includes very deep and strong blues, but is not limited to them. It’s also the word used for the skin colour which in English would be called “black”, and for people of that skin colour. While it is the word that would be used to describe the colour of the sea, on its own it doesn’t particularly suggest the sea, or water. Like a lot of Irish words, it has more than one meaning. Fear gorm, as well as meaning a black man (e.g. an African man) can also mean a mean, stingy or emotionally cold man, or a noble or illustrious man. It all depends on the context. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/3 "2026-10-20T00:52:01Z")
It’s better than “wine-dark”, at least. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/4 "2026-10-20T01:00:18Z")
D’oh! ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/5 "2026-10-20T03:01:19Z")
Actually, “wine-faced” or “wine-eyed.” > _ **Wine-dark sea** _ is a traditional English translation of _oînops póntos_ ([οἶνοψ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%88 "wiktionary:οἶνοψ") [πόντος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82 "wiktionary:πόντος"), [IPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Greek "Help:IPA/Greek"): /ôi̯.nops pón.tos/), from _oînos_ ([οἶνος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 "wiktionary:οἶνος"), “wine”) + _óps_ ([ὄψ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%84%CF%88 "wiktionary:ὄψ"), “eye; face”), a [Homeric epithet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer "Epithets in Homer"). –Wikipedia An interesting discussion of the dearth of “blue” at that link: [Wine-dark sea - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine-dark_sea) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/6 "2026-10-20T03:04:28Z")
The evolution of the concept of blue as a distinct color in ancient languages is an entire rabbit hole in and of itself. [Blue-green distinction in language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue%E2%80%93green_distinction_in_language) ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/7 "2026-10-20T05:19:42Z")
Very interesting. Thx, y’all. “Ancient” was in the crossword clue, @UDS1, not my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/8 "2026-10-20T07:07:26Z")
Make America Gorm Again! Be sure to vote, Folks! ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/9 "2026-10-20T11:29:26Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Very interesting. Thx, y’all. > > “Ancient” was in the crossword clue, @UDS1, not my opinion. You appeared to quote the clue which does not contain the word ancient. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/10 "2026-10-20T11:55:11Z")
How then does the English term “gormless” fit into this? Totally unrelated? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/11 "2026-10-20T12:01:49Z")
From etymoline: > [@](#): > > ## **gormless(adj.)** > > c. 1746, also in early use _gaumless_, _gawmless_, “wanting sense, stupid,” a British dialectal word, from _gome_ “notice, understanding” (c. 1200), from Old Norse _gaumr_ “care, heed” (of unknown origin); + **[-less](https://www.etymonline.com/word/-less "Etymology, meaning and definition of -less")**. So seems unrelated, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/12 "2026-10-20T12:15:18Z")
Huh, i didn’t realize that was the literal translation. No wonder I’ve read that it probably meant the sea was drunken, or violent. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/13 "2026-10-20T14:29:43Z")
I think it says something about modern thinking (in the sense of the post-Enlightenment rationalist paradigm) that we jump from “wine-faced sea” to thinking about color. Homer was almost certainly anthropomorphizing the ocean instead of referring to its color. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan\_myers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@aruvqan\_myers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan_myers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/14 "2026-10-20T14:39:33Z")
That is what sprung to my mind, translation is not always a 1:1, sometimes stuff ends up being more poetic [wine dark instead of dark blue I suppose] ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/15 "2026-10-20T18:43:27Z")
Dark like Port? A sea of Port? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2026, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/16 "2026-10-20T20:01:43Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Actually, “wine-faced” or “wine-eyed.” > > > _ **Wine-dark sea** _ is a traditional English translation of _oînops póntos_ ([οἶνοψ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%88 "wiktionary:οἶνοψ") [πόντος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82 "wiktionary:πόντος"), [IPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Greek "Help:IPA/Greek"): /ôi̯.nops pón.tos/), from _oînos_ ([οἶνος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 "wiktionary:οἶνος"), “wine”) + _óps_ ([ὄψ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%84%CF%88 "wiktionary:ὄψ"), “eye; face”), a [Homeric epithet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer "Epithets in Homer"). > > –Wikipedia > > An interesting discussion of the dearth of “blue” at that link: [Wine-dark sea - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine-dark_sea) That has always bothered me. I do not agree, as some have claimed- that the Ancient Greeks could not _see_ “Blue”- just that they had no word for it. I mean Pantone is a new color- “A lofty, serene white designed to encourage quiet reflection and calm.” That does not mean no one could see said color before. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/17 "2026-10-21T00:17:01Z")
I personally like “greige” as a color. Just like to see it printed. Not to paint my walls with. ETA @DrDeth Pantone is not a single color. It’s a language of colors for a universal matching system. Are you saying Pantone has a new white? ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/18 "2026-10-21T00:33:28Z")
Totally. It means “wanting sense or discernment” and the root is an Old Norse word _gaum_, meaning care or heed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/19 "2026-10-21T02:51:56Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Are you saying Pantone has a new white? Yes. > [@DrDeth](#): > > A lofty, serene white designed to encourage quiet reflection and calm.” ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/20 "2026-10-21T03:07:01Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Pantone is not a single color. I think it was a typo for Pantone HAS a new color. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I mean Pantone is a new color- [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983.md?page=2)