# Wait. Is that how ancient Irish peoples said "deep blue waters"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 19, 2026, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983 "2026-10-19T23:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/21 "2026-10-21T03:09:12Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I think it was a typo for Pantone HAS a new color. Thank you. The tool to spot spelling mistakes will not catch those. šŸ™€ ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/22 "2026-10-21T03:18:06Z")
I thought so. Thx for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/23 "2026-10-21T16:18:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > just that they had no word for it. What is ĪŗĻĪ±Ī½ĪæĻ‚ (and the adjective ĪŗĻ…Ī±Ī½ĻŒĻ‚ / ĪŗĻ…Ī¬Ī½ĪµĪæĻ‚), chopped liver? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/24 "2026-10-21T18:56:35Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > What is ĪŗĻĪ±Ī½ĪæĻ‚ (and the adjective ĪŗĻ…Ī±Ī½ĻŒĻ‚ / ĪŗĻ…Ī¬Ī½ĪµĪæĻ‚), chopped liver? > **[Why Most Ancient Civilizations Had No Word for the Color Blue](https://www.openculture.com/2025/04/why-most-ancient-civilizations-had-no-word-for-color-blue.html)** > > In an old Zen story, two monks argue over whether a flag is waving or whether itā€™s the wind that waves. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/25 "2026-10-21T19:12:16Z")
Serious question: what about the word family I cited? Homer may never have used it, but Homer ā‰  the totality of Ancient Greek speakers. As far as the point about Prussian Blue, consider smalt: [Cobalt glass - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_glass). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/26 "2026-10-21T19:22:09Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Serious question: what about the word family I cited? Homer may never have used it, but Homer ā‰  the totality of Ancient Greek speakers. Different periods of "ancient Greeceā€™, it seems. But that word uses the modern term blue to describe a type of enamel often used on armor, which to us is Blue. The idea they could not SEE blue is bogus IMHO. In other words, they had words to describe blue _things_, but Ancient Greeks did not have a single word for the color ā€œblueā€ as a standalone spectral hue. Experts claim that languages tend to develop color words in a sequenceā€”start with black and white, then red, yellow, green, and finally blue. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/27 "2026-10-21T19:28:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That has always bothered me. I do not agree, as some have claimed- that the Ancient Greeks could not _see_ ā€œBlueā€- just that they had no word for it. Does anyone seriously claim that? Iā€™ve never heard of it. Itā€™s, like you say, just a matter of how they classified colors. You might not have a word for, say, ā€œorange,ā€ but ā€œredā€ and ā€œyellowā€ can cover it. Of course it doesnā€™t mean they couldnā€™t see it, unless their biology was fundamentally different than ours. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/28 "2026-10-21T19:35:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Does anyone seriously claim that? [https://medium.com/language-lab/why-the-ancient-greeks-couldnt-see-the-colour-blue-2f920657f6ae](https://medium.com/language-lab/why-the-ancient-greeks-couldnt-see-the-colour-blue-2f920657f6ae) > At the start of the book, Deutscher talks about Homer, and why in his epics _The Iliad_ and _The Odyssey,_ the first ā€˜greatā€™ poet of western civilisation described the sea as _oĆ®nops,_ or ā€˜wine-darkā€™. The strange description has baffled people for centuries, and while some saw ā€˜wine darkā€™ as nothing more than poetic licence at play, nineteenth century British prime minister William Gladstone went so far as to suggest that the ancients were partially colour blind.The reason the sea was described as a shade of wine, Gladstone speculated, was because Homer, and all his contemporaries, couldnā€™t see the colour blue. > > As modern science joined ranks with the then prevalent colonialist worldview of nineteenth century Europe, Gladstoneā€™s ideas began to take hold. (the article is paywalled some time after that) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/29 "2026-10-21T19:38:52Z")
Wait, so is the remarkable fact merely that different languages have different boundaries for ā€œblue,ā€ or are you arguing that the ancient Greek colour-word used for dark blue isnā€™t, in fact, a colour-word used for dark blue because itā€™s a noun for a type of enamel? You might be dissapointed when you start looking into the history of the colour-word ā€œorange,ā€ which is clearly not a colour because itā€™s a type of fruit. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/30 "2026-10-21T19:42:07Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > or are you arguing Not me, linguists. But we have monopolized this thread too much. Maybe a new one? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/31 "2026-10-21T19:44:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [https://medium.com/language-lab/why-the-ancient-greeks-couldnt-see-the-colour-blue-2f920657f6ae](https://medium.com/language-lab/why-the-ancient-greeks-couldnt-see-the-colour-blue-2f920657f6ae) Thereā€™s a reason [Wikipdia doesnā€™t like _Medium_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Medium) to be used as a source. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/32 "2026-10-21T19:46:24Z")
A guy who died before scientists understood how rods and cones work? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/33 "2026-10-21T19:50:54Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Does anyone seriously claim that? Iā€™ve never heard of it. Itā€™s, like you say, just a matter of how they classified colors. You might not have a word for, say, ā€œorange,ā€ but ā€œredā€ and ā€œyellowā€ can cover it. Of course it doesnā€™t mean they couldnā€™t see it, unless their biology was fundamentally different than ours. Oh yes, it is a common myth. Another one equally as stupid is that Indigenous people literally could not see Christopher Columbusā€™s or Captain Cookā€™s ships because they had no word in their vocabulary to describe them. šŸ™„ ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/34 "2026-10-21T19:51:09Z")
The word _pink_ originally referred to fancy lace, and later got transferred to a color (mediated by a flower). Words are squirmy things. And thereā€™s no reason to think that Homeric _oĆ®nops_ is a euphemism for color. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/35 "2026-10-21T19:58:08Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Thereā€™s a reason [Wikipdia doesnā€™t like _Medium_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Medium) to be used as a source. I said > [@DrDeth](#): > > The idea they could not SEE blue is bogus IMHO. That does not mean someone did not make that claim, so your point is pointless. I was not claiming that idea had merit, in fact the opposite. Still that bogus idea was going around for some years- > **[Why the ancient Greeks couldn't see blue](https://ed.ted.com/best_of_web/uYX3FqLC)** > > Why is the color ā€œblueā€ barely mentioned in ancient writings and texts? Did ancient civilizations just see color differently? Were they all color blind? AsapSCIENCE digs into the neuroscience of how we see different colors.Ā  > **[The bizarre myth that Ancient Greeks couldn't see blue](https://www.slowboring.com/p/greeks-blue)** > > Don't overrate the power of language to shape minds > Hereā€™s something you may not know: pre-modern people couldnā€™t see the color blue. > > One reason you probably didnā€™t know this is that it isnā€™t true. But that hasnā€™t stopped a lot of people over the years from _claiming_ itā€™s true. Indeed, I recently learned via [Noah Smith](https://noahpinion.substack.com/)ā€™s Twitter feed that thereā€™s a whole cottage industry of people claiming that before the modern world, nobody could see blue. > > - [ā€œThereā€™s Evidence Humans Didnā€™t Actually See Blue Until Modern Timesā€](https://edubirdie.com/blog/humans-didnt-see-the-colour-blue-until-modern-times) [Science Alert, 2018] > > - [ā€œNo one could see the colour blue until modern timesā€](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2) [Business Insider, 2015] > > - [ā€œWhy the Ancient Greeks couldnā€™t see blueā€](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1-WuBbVe2E) [ASAP Science, 2019] > > - [ā€œWhy ancient civilizations couldnā€™t see the color blueā€](https://www.good.is/articles/ancient-civilizations-no-color-blue) [Good, 2020] > > - [ā€œCould our ancestors see blue? Ancient people didnā€™t perceive the colour because they didnā€™t have a word for it, say scientistsā€](https://twitter.com/njenfield/status/1508952176517054464) [Daily Mail, 2015] > > Whatā€™s going on here? Why are all these people writing articles claiming that ancient people couldnā€™t see blue? So, before you attack a cite, think about what is actually being claimed. > [@Dorjan](#): > > Oh yes, it is a common myth. Right. But to go on- > It is true that lots of ancient languages didnā€™t have a word that refers to the exact part of the color spectrum that we call ā€œblueā€ in English. And there is also some evidence that a personā€™s native language influences their perception of colors. But for some reason, large swathes of humanity are strongly predisposed to believe the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that human thought is really controlled by language. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > You might be dissapointed when you start looking into the history of the colour-word ā€œorange,ā€ which is clearly not a colour because itā€™s a type of fruit. The fruit came first, the color word came from it. In around 1300 the word for the fruit came into use. In around 1500 that word ā€œorangeā€ as a color came into use. The Old English word _geolurēad_, meaning ā€œyellow-redā€ was used before the 1500s- in our language at least. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/36 "2026-10-21T20:09:06Z")
It may make it harder to differentiate what would be considered shades of a color, but we donā€™t need language in order to see. Some languages donā€™t have separate words for some parts of the arm. Doesnā€™t mean they couldnā€™t comprehend them or articulate them in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/37 "2026-10-21T20:10:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That does not mean someone did not make that claim, Yes, a [nut](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/nutpicking-fallacy.html) is ā€œanyoneā€. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2026, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983/38 "2026-10-21T20:30:31Z")
Not sure about _Gorm_, but The Irish I know prefer to drink [beer from the Land of Sky Blue Waters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8njwKklop_w). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-is-that-how-ancient-irish-peoples-said-deep-blue-waters/1033983.md?page=1)