# Wait.... Jesus was white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2023, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199 "2023-02-02T09:14:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/61 "2023-02-03T07:06:42Z")
Damn ya’ll. Anyway… we don’t know for sure Jesus (Yeshua) existed at all, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/62 "2023-02-03T07:56:39Z")
I figure if Yeshua ben Yosef looked much different than his disciples or peers, one of the Gospel writers might have mentioned it. What I wonder is if He returned today would he call himself Josh Josephson or Josh Carpenter? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/63 "2023-02-03T12:12:49Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > David was (per the Hebrew scriptures) the great-granddaughter of Ruth - a non-Israelite from the people of Moab, a people considered by the Israelites to be inferior and impure Yes, but also per the Hebrew scriptures, Ruth accepted the God of the Israelites as her God and the Israelite people as her own. Also, we need to stay true to the OP that asked about a “white” Jesus, which would be non–Middle Eastern in nature. [European Jesus](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fallthatsinteresting.com%2Fwhite-jesus&psig=AOvVaw2r43FC4jHiKNFAOmvMLmry&ust=1675512605075000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjRxqFwoTCMiu44-p-fwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAG) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/64 "2023-02-03T16:18:44Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Anyway… we don’t know for sure Jesus (Yeshua) existed at all, correct? Post #60 is a hell of a time for the OP to bring up this question. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > If you are going to take the Bible’s word that Jesus even existed you might as well assume the rest is accurate. Anyway, Jesus probably looked pretty much like everyone around him, or someone probably would have mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/65 "2023-02-03T17:02:40Z")
Unca Cecil’s take on that question. > **[Did Jesus really exist? And what’s with the Shroud of Turin?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341693/did-jesus-really-exist-and-what-s-with-the-shroud-of-turin)** > [@Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353): > > I just read this older article in search for myself why there are no records of the Christ, you would think there would be hundreds of ancient writings and records for someone who claimed to be the son of God. its so confusing. and came to this conclusion about the shroud. how could it be from the Christ? for one thing i think cloth would decompose. plus, If I removed my dead son or relative, from a torture stake, id clean him off, [his blood would run out and coagulate wouldn’t it?] p… Topics debating that very question. > [@Did Jesus Exist?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-exist/537889): > > First off, I have been agnostic for only a few years now. Yet I have always thought that Jesus was a real person. Granted I thought maybe he was a great illusionist or something. Recently I’ve started looking into the question of, was there an actual jesus? Is there any actual recorded history from non-believers? Someone told me that Pontius Pilate had some notes written about jesus from that time, only to later find out the notes were from a work of fiction by W. P. Crozier in 1928. A friend… > [@How do we know for certain Jesus really lived?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978): > > Let’s try to keep this from going into the BBQ Pit. I didn’t think it belonged in General Questions. I in no way mean to insult, question or belittle the beliefs of anyone by asking this question. I have met a lot of people who swear that Jesus lived, said the things he is supposed to have said, and died the way he was supposed to have died. There is absolutely no doubt in their minds. So was Jesus a historical figure, and if he was, how do we know? What undeniable scientific or other evidence… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/66 "2023-02-03T17:14:53Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > > [@Andy\_L](#): > > > > David was (per the Hebrew scriptures) the great-granddaughter of Ruth - a non-Israelite from the people of Moab, a people considered by the Israelites to be inferior and impure > > Yes, but also per the Hebrew scriptures, Ruth accepted the God of the Israelites as her God and the Israelite people as her own. > > Also, we need to stay true to the OP that asked about a “white” Jesus, which would be non–Middle Eastern in nature. > > [European Jesus](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fallthatsinteresting.com%2Fwhite-jesus&psig=AOvVaw2r43FC4jHiKNFAOmvMLmry&ust=1675512605075000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjRxqFwoTCMiu44-p-fwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAG) The Moabites were close relatives of the Israelites, and probably looked similar. From the Wikipedia article: > According to the biblical account, Moab and [Ammon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon) were born to [Lot](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_(biblical)) and Lot’s elder and younger daughters, respectively, in the aftermath of the destruction of [Sodom and Gomorrah](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah). The Bible refers to both the Moabites and Ammonites as Lot’s sons, born of incest with his daughters Lot was Abraham’s nephew. The nations of Judah and Moab were often at war, but they recognized each other as distant cousins. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/67 "2023-02-03T17:41:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > Were the Jews considered barbarians? I thought the Romans used the term for those blond haired and blued eyed people from across the Danube 😜. > > Anyone who wasn’t Roman was a barbarian, although they made an exception for the Greeks and possibly the Egyptians. More to the point, “Roman” was a matter of legal citizenship, not race or ethnicity. There was certainly prejudice, with the Romans looking down on the Italian Allies during the Republic, and the Italians looking down on the Cisalpine and Iberian Gauls during the early Empire, and so on. But Rome had powerful people of all sorts of heritages; Emperor Septimus Severus came from Libya, and was what we today would call black. > [@Alessan](#): > > The Philistines, in turn, were a foreign nation (probably from the Aegean) that adapted the Canaanite culture and religion and were ultimately assimilated. To add on to this, a name very close to Philistines appears in the Egyptian record that describes the invasion of the so-called Sea Peoples. So a theory I have heard, but of whose strength I am uncertain, says that the Philistines along with other Agean peoples participated in some kind of “armed migration” along the lines of those we associate with Germanic peoples at the end of the Roman Empire, and that this is the “Sea People” event that seems linked to the Bronze Age Collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/68 "2023-02-03T17:50:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Emperor Septimus Severus came from Libya, and was what we today would call black. According to Wikipedia he was born into a Roman family though, not a native Libyan family. So I don’t know if he would have exactly been what we today call “black.” He did have Punic (Phoenecian) ancestry from his father’s side though. Here’s an attempt at a realistic reconstruction of his face (how accurate it actually is, I don’t know.) If anything, he looks South Asian (Indian, Pakistani etc) to me. [![](https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/13002.jpeg?v=1615207505) ](https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/13002.jpeg?v=1615207505) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/69 "2023-02-03T18:03:05Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > According to Wikipedia he was born into a Roman family though, not a native Libyan family. So I don’t know if he would have exactly been what we today call “black.” He did have Punic (Phoenecian) ancestry from his father’s side though. His father was Punic and his mother was Latin but born to a family that had been settled in Libya for several generations. See here for more detail, and many more examples of the varied ethnicities of Romans, both high ranking and otherwise: > **[Collections: The Queen’s Latin or Who Were the Romans? Part IV: The Color of...](https://acoup.blog/2021/07/23/collections-the-queens-latin-or-who-were-the-romans-part-iv-the-color-of-purple/)** > > This is the fourth part (I, II, III, IV, V) of our series asking the question “Who were the Romans?” and contrasting the answer we get from the historical evidence with the pop-cultural… For example, the linked blog notes an ‘Aethiopian’ (likely not actually Ethiopian, but Black certainly) soldier serving in Roman Britain during Severus’ reign. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/70 "2023-02-03T18:39:02Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > There are pages and pages of the Old Testament where the exact lineage of famous Israelites is traced through many generations. So-and-so begat so-and-so begat so-and-so begat so-and-so and infinitum. When scripture references say that Jesus was “of the house and lineage of David”, that is exactly what they mean. Those pages of begats leave out all the women. And there are certainly mentions elsewhere of women born outside the group being brought into it; whether voluntarily or by force of conquest. So, even aside from questions of accuracy, I don’t think this question can be settled by the begats. I wouldn’t expect the people in the groups the women came from to have looked particularly like modern Europeans, however. And if Jesus had been light haired and/or blue eyed, I’d also have expected that to have been remarked upon. European art made Jesus to match their standards of handsome, based on their ideas, not on evidence. And during a chunk of that time there was a lot of anti-semitism; so they probably specifically didn’t want to make Jesus look their idea of Semitic, even though the evidence in the Bible they claimed to be following makes it utterly clear that the Jesus being described was an observant Jew. > [@aruvqan](#): > > as Jefferson was known to have a slave mistress, and it is documented she had children 4 of the 6 were considered to be his children [I had found the names of 4] so if they had had children, then Jefferson would have had partly black descendents. They did and he does. They had some trouble getting believed, until DNA evidence became available. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/71 "2023-02-03T19:25:42Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > European art made Jesus to match their standards of handsome, based on their ideas, not on evidence. Not just Jesus, but ancient historical, religious, and/or mythological figures in general. My understanding (though I am no expert) is that much of European art through the ages was not particularly concerned with historical accuracy or photographic realism. Artists used people around them as models, and the people, clothing, architechture, etc. in their works might be influenced more by where they were painted than by where they were set. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/72 "2023-02-03T20:34:09Z")
Septimus Severus lived about 200 years after the supposed time of Jesus. The appropriate comparison is to the reign of Augustus. Roman culture was still heavily weighted toward the ancient families at the top, with massive prejudices against foreigners, especially easterners, seen as particularly un-Roman. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/73 "2023-02-03T20:37:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not just Jesus, but ancient historical, religious, and/or mythological figures in general. My understanding (though I am no expert) is that much of European art through the ages was not particularly concerned with historical accuracy My understanding also, though I’m also no expert. Except for the antisemitism note, I didn’t mean to imply that they only did this with Jesus; but I can see how my post may have come off that way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/74 "2023-02-03T22:07:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Which presumably came as quite a shock. Well, he was kind of smitten with Jonathan. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/75 "2023-02-03T22:11:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not just Jesus, but ancient historical, religious, and/or mythological figures in general. My understanding (though I am no expert) is that much of European art through the ages was not particularly concerned with historical accuracy or photographic realism. Artists used people around them as models, and the people, clothing, architechture, etc. in their works might be influenced more by where they were painted than by where they were set. Mary in European art often wore clothing more appropriate to the time the art was done than when she lived, and stood in front of European buildings. Pretty standard, like one of the Canterbury Tales which involved jousting in ancient Greece. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/76 "2023-02-03T23:05:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > As I’ve said before, IMO the most accurate portrayal of Jesus was Jeff Goldblum in The Favor, The Watch And The Very Big Fish. Go a few shades darker and it would be perfect. Jeff’s too tall. Rather few men in that era would have been as tall as Mr. Goldblum. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/77 "2023-02-03T23:22:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Scripture says nothing about His race but it’s safe to assume He was someone of the regional appearance - Middle Eastern. True, likely Darker skin, black hair. But most people consider people from that area as “white”., not Black" or “Hispanic” or etc. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > If you are going to take the Bible’s word that Jesus even existed you might as well assume the rest is accurate. Or Josephus or Tacticus, etc. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Jesus appearing to John is no longer human, but in what is called his glorified form. That is not _John the beloved disciple,_ but another, who quite possible never met Jesus. > [@griffin1977](#): > > There were a few humorous comments about a [“scientific” reconstruction of Jesus looking like DJ Khaled](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/149/699/dfd.jpg), which my reaction was “well duh, a Semitic-speaking 30-something from Palestine looks like a Semitic-speaking 30-something from Palestine. who’d a thunk it?” One of those looks kinda heavy set, and who know Jesus fasted a lot, so likely He was thin. > [@aruvqan](#): > > And as Jefferson was known to have a slave mistress, and it is documented she had children 4 of the 6 were considered to be his children Or his brother. > [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Anyway… we don’t know for sure Jesus (Yeshua) existed at all, correct? Cecil says so. and we have a few sources. But until recently, we didn’t know for sure that Pontius Pilate existed either. And he was the Governor. Records from that period are very scarce. But this issue is a hijack, we have had at least a dozen threads on the subject. > [@Babale](#): > > More to the point, “Roman” was a matter of legal citizenship, not race or ethnicity. Paul was a Roman citizen, for example. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/78 "2023-02-03T23:33:02Z")
All this discussion about whether Jesus was white before we’ve even nailed down what “white” means? If “white” means Caucasian (as either the 3-race scheme of Linnaeus or the 4-race scheme of Blumenbach posited), then Jesus was Caucasian and Caucasian meant white. With the human _need_ to divide and conquer, “white” has been defined differently depending on who was making the distinctions. Until one sets out what the word means, all the other discussions are going to be fruitless. Given that I feel confident in asserting that Jesus was not lavender or fuchsia, I am not sure where the question even comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/79 "2023-02-04T00:25:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > The Jesus appearing to John is no longer human, but in what is called his glorified form. > > That is not _John the beloved disciple,_ but another, who quite possible never met Jesus. John the “beloved disciple” wrote the Gospel of John, I, II, II John, and Revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199/80 "2023-02-04T00:42:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The Moabites were close relatives of the Israelites, and probably looked similar. Probably true - but they were considered socially very different. My point is that not only was Jesus not white (the socially accepted appearance in Europe and the USA), he was descended partially from a group that wasn’t socially acceptable among the people he was born into. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And yes, he probably looked like modern-day Arabs. Of course some modern-day Arabs look much like Europeans. Compare [Tariq Aziz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aziz_cropped.jpg) with [David White](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_White_(actor)#/media/File:DavidWhite1.jpg) (“Bewitched”'s Larry Tate) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wait-jesus-was-white/979199.md?page=5)