# waiting \[for Supreme Court decision on health care law\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 18, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510 "2012-06-18T13:51:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/241 "2012-06-27T23:13:24Z")
Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/242 "2012-06-27T23:19:49Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > …Basically, there are _decades_ of USSC precedents that point to the ACA’s clear constitutionality. The USSC has never ruled that the federal government can force the public to buy anything. The Justices repeatedly questioned the lawyers about forcing people to buy broccoli in order to clarify the governments position. So one of the questions the USSC will decide is if the federal government can force you and I to buy broccoli/Obamacare if we don’t want to buy broccoli/Obamacare? CONGRESS could have made the money-grabbing portion of Obamacare a tax, which CONGRESS had the power to do but didn’t. The USSC has previously ruled that Congress can levy taxes. They’ve also ruled that a tax can’t be challenged until a taxpayer actually has to pay the tax. If the USSC rules that the government can force you to pay for broccoli and fine you if you don’t, the government could also force you to buy a Chevy, solar panels, and a house if Congress decides that they want you to support the automaker, green jobs and the building trades. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/243 "2012-06-27T23:22:00Z")
No, it can’t. The cost of your decision not to buy a Chevy or a house doesn’t fall on the taxpayer. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/244 "2012-06-27T23:30:25Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > If Lawrence O’Donnell is to be believed, the mandate is toothless anyway. I find O’Donnell to be extremely biased in favor of everything Obama but that’s for another thread. Once CONGRESS has established that little, tiny tax, Congress can raise that tax at anytime. The object is to get their foot in the door and then there’s literally no limit as to how high the tax could go. It’s a good thing that CONGRESS repeatedly and specifically stated during the bill’s debate that this wasn’t a tax. The USSC only has to search the Congressional record of the floor debate to verify that. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/245 "2012-06-27T23:32:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it can’t. The cost of your decision not to buy a Chevy or a house doesn’t fall on the taxpayer. Not today. Currently, Congress can not force you to buy anything. Including health care insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/246 "2012-06-27T23:36:03Z")
Actually, it can. In fact, it just did. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/247 "2012-06-27T23:37:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Not today. Currently, Congress can not force you to buy anything. > > Including health care insurance. They force you to buy education, firemen, military, policemen, roads, etc. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/248 "2012-06-27T23:38:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it can’t. The cost of your decision not to buy a Chevy or a house doesn’t fall on the taxpayer. Good argument for a mandate, but this is about whether the Constitution allows the mandate, not whether it’s a good idea or an equitable one. I don’t think there’s anything in the Constitution that says Congress may mandate the buying of something if the decision not to costs the taxpayers something. Can you give me any other example of that? Flood insurance might be an example, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/249 "2012-06-27T23:40:16Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > They force you to buy education, firemen, military, policemen, roads, etc. You buy the military? No, you pay taxes. If this were a tax, it would be perfectly constitutional. They should have just made it a tax and be done with it, but that was politically infeasible. It’s really not much of a distinction in the real world, of course, but unfortunately it matters legally. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/250 "2012-06-27T23:41:12Z")
Congress already mandates the purchase of (federal) retirement and disability insurance. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/251 "2012-06-27T23:41:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s a good thing that CONGRESS repeatedly and specifically stated during the bill’s debate that this wasn’t a tax. The USSC only has to search the Congressional record of the floor debate to verify that. I think the act itself says that. Or at least it justifies the mandate, implying it’s not. Can’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/252 "2012-06-27T23:42:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it can’t. The cost of your decision not to buy a Chevy or a house doesn’t fall on the taxpayer. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, it can. In fact, it just did. Did what? Obamacare’s money-grabbing portion hasn’t been given the greenlight by the USSC yet. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/253 "2012-06-27T23:42:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You buy the military? > > No, you pay taxes. > > If this were a tax, it would be perfectly constitutional. They should have just made it a tax and be done with it, but that was politically infeasible. > > It’s really not much of a distinction in the real world, of course, but unfortunately it matters legally. Well that is what we will find out and why many Constitutional scholars feel it is Constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/254 "2012-06-27T23:42:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think the act itself says that. Or at least it justifies the mandate, implying it’s not. Can’t remember. The language of the enactment variously calls it a “penalty” and other things. It doesn’t call it a tax, but that doesn’t really matter. Congress did not claim to be passing the bill under its taxing and spending power, so that’s a secondary argument. [QUOTE=doorhinge] Obamacare’s money-grabbing portion hasn’t been given the greenlight by the USSC yet. [/QUOTE] No, but that’s not how it works. Believe it or not, federal law is effective before the Supreme Court says it’s okay. SCOTUS hasn’t given the green light to the 2011 Emergency Supplemental Disaster Relief Appropriations Resolution, either, but it’s still law. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/255 "2012-06-27T23:43:59Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Well that is what we will find out and why many Constitutional scholars feel it is Constitutional. Notice I didn’t say it wasn’t either. I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/256 "2012-06-27T23:45:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The language of the enactment variously calls it a “penalty” and other things. It doesn’t call it a tax, but that doesn’t really matter. Congress did not claim to be passing the bill under its taxing and spending power, so that’s a secondary argument. Congress doesn’t usually explain what power it’s using to pass a bill, though the GOP House has now begun to require that in every bill. Most are pretty vague, of course. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/257 "2012-06-27T23:49:00Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > They force you to buy education, firemen, military, policemen, roads, etc. FYI - You can BUY those firemen, policemen, and sailormen all dressed in white to dance at your party but those aren’t “real” firemen, policemen, and sailors. You pay taxes to the city, State, and federal government which uses your tax dollars to provide city services that include fire protection, police protection, and maintain the military. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/258 "2012-06-27T23:50:56Z")
Can anyone who’s claiming this is unconstitutional give me a definition of “tax”? Preferably one which encompasses the rest of the US income tax code, with all of its myriad credits and deductions, while excluding the PPACA’s non-insurance penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/259 "2012-06-27T23:53:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > FYI - You can BUY those firemen, policemen, and sailormen all dressed in white to dance at your party but those aren’t “real” firemen, policemen, and sailors. > > You pay taxes to the city, State, and federal government which uses your tax dollars to provide city services that include fire protection, police protection, and maintain the military. Thank you for the Obvious Lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510/260 "2012-06-27T23:55:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Congress doesn’t usually explain what power it’s using to pass a bill, though the GOP House has now begun to require that in every bill. Most are pretty vague, of course. They don’t _have_ to, but they do it quite frequently. For example, the legislative findings portion of PPACA indicate that Congress was exercising its commerce power: > [@](#): > > The requirement regulates activity that is commercial and economic in nature: economic and financial decisions about how and when health care is paid for, and when health insurance is purchased. In the absence of the requirement, some individuals would make an economic and financial decision to forego health insurance coverage and attempt to self-insure, which increases financial risks to households and medical providers > > 42 U.S.C. § 18091 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-supreme-court-decision-on-health-care-law/625510.md?page=14)