# Waiting period waived for HH Pope John Paul II **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035 "2005-05-23T02:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/21 "2005-05-25T01:31:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Oy, vey… how many times? > > It’s the _Catholic Church_. An article of doctrine or faith DOES **NOT** have to come from anywhere in those books. Hehehehe. I love your “oy vey”! **JRDelirious** is correct. According to Catholic theology, divine sources of authority are Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. Some may argue they are only Tradition and Reason, as Tradition created Scripture. They have a very good reasoning behind this. But this is Catholic theology, quite different from Protestant theology. (Useless trivia: Latter-day Saints have a similar belief. They believe that the Church, its teachings, and its practices are based not on Scripture but on Revelation, part of which is Scripture.) WRS ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/22 "2005-05-25T02:28:26Z")
So, in essence you’re stating that “We can make shit up,” regardless of the religion. OK, now I get it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/23 "2005-05-25T02:36:18Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > So, in essence you’re stating that “We can make shit up,” regardless of the religion. OK, now I get it. :dubious: From some of our perspectives, it’s (possibly, for us agnostics) _all_ made-up shit. The foibles of what counts as authoritative or not amongst theists makes for interesting virtual-water-cooler talk, but there’s no there there, in essence. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/24 "2005-05-25T03:12:05Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > Excalibre - what am I and what am I not? 😉 You were invoking the Intercession of the Saints. While I’m aware that other religions have similar doctrines (though how it works in different faiths is not my area of expertise) I certainly can’t think of any besides Catholicism that would consider John Paul número dos to be a saint. Sorry, but personally a salad bar faith that draws upon whatever attracts ones fancy from every other religion is something that bothers me - I find it disrespectful to put on a show of worshipping something that the worshipper doesn’t really understand thoroughly, especially when it results in a mutually-incompatible set of “beliefs.” But then, I tend to place a very high value on respect for other religions. I always have. I think that treating religious beliefs like playing dress-up with old clothes is insulting. > [@WeRSauron](#): > > I do not think I’m jumping the gun: the title of “Great” is not proclaimed by some tribunal - like being declared a saint - but by the voice of the people. The people have begun speaking. 🙂 The people began speaking in the midst of a blitz of media hagiography that made the issue seem like a larger one than it was for one reason: to sell newspapers and ad dollars. Besides, it seems rather silly to do so immediately after his death, when feelings will no doubt dissipate to some extent in a few years. Hell, the Catholic Church has guidelines on how long the canonization process ought to last, and for the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/25 "2005-05-25T03:15:16Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > So, in essence you’re stating that “We can make shit up,” regardless of the religion. OK, now I get it. :dubious: Yeah, most religions have that attitude. You think the books are somehow magical and holy, but later revelations aren’t? It’s important not to view religion through the lens of American-style Protestantism; most other faiths don’t have nearly the legalistic adherence to a single source. In fact, I’m hard-pressed to think of any. Why should an old book be treated as the single, perfect source of wisdom in a religion? Especially when there’s nothing that says that the book wasn’t made up shit either. I think you’ve internalized Protestant legalism to an extent, if you really have a problem with it. Certainly adhering like that to a single document is not common among religions, and it’s not even an idea with that much history in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/26 "2005-05-25T03:52:54Z")
the best place to stop a problem behavior is when it occurs. > [@Excalibre](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re referring to - your description is rather to vague for me to understand at the moment. It’s just a reaction to the current hagiography of Mr. Wojtyla - **it seems imprudent to decide upon his greatness so quickly** , and a couple days of over-the-top praise when he’d just died aside, **“the Great” is generally a title conferred by history after a significantly longer period of time.** **Excalibre** in your first post here you registrd surprise at the way Sauron is speaking of the late pope. Surprise often indicates disaproval. My analysis of your stance is carried out by your choice of words above. Since in another thread, earlier this very day, you have said the following: > [@Excalibre](#): > > I don’t really see why - while I’m on record as being somewhat opposed to the rise of the Religious Right in the United States (in much the same way that Noam Chomsky is “somewhat opposed” to military unilateralism), I’m hardly given to kneejerk anti-religious sentiments. In fact, I spend a lot more time arguing with folks like **Scott Plaid** that religion is _not_ something to be condemned. I don’t think that’s a fair thing for you to imply at all. I am pissy about religion. You are pissy about statements made by religous people. There is little to no pratical diffrence between the two, and in this thread your statements have crossed the line into hypocracy. You are now saying that individual beliefs are " something to be condemned. " Again, not the same thing as the position I hold, but damned close. I ask that you either stop attacking me in other threads for pointing out faults in religous beliefs, since you do the same, or… Well, actually, or nothing. That’s it. I want you to admit you indulge in the same behaviors you find fault in my doing. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/27 "2005-05-25T04:14:55Z")
**Scott** , I don’t see your argument here, but I’m willing to discuss it. You may indeed have something there, and I’d like to hear it. But not here. My email’s in my profile, or you can start a Pit thread. I won’t take it personally - you can call it a pitting-lite if you wish. Here’s just not the spot. PS: **WeRSauron** , it was totally inappropriate for _me_ to bring up my opinions on your faith here; not only is your spiritual journey your own business, but this wasn’t the forum to discuss it anyway. My humble apologies. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/28 "2005-05-26T13:22:25Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > PS: **WeRSauron** , it was totally inappropriate for _me_ to bring up my opinions on your faith here; not only is your spiritual journey your own business, but this wasn’t the forum to discuss it anyway. My humble apologies. No offense taken! 🙂 WRS ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/29 "2005-05-26T14:47:09Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > The last time a part of the waiting period was waived was with the case of Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Well, if one of the most evil women of the 20th century can become a “saint,” I guess it’s up for grabs. She made Eva Peron look like an amatuer, as far as the suffering she caused and the overwhelming success of her PR campaign. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/30 "2005-05-26T16:34:15Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, if one of the most evil women of the 20th century can become a “saint,” I guess it’s up for grabs. She made Eva Peron look like an amatuer, as far as the suffering she caused and the overwhelming success of her PR campaign. Yeah, that’s why the Gov’t of India threw a state funeral for her. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/31 "2005-05-26T16:48:02Z")
That lucky so and so. He didn’t have to sit through the waiting period to get his handgun either. ducks and runs ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/32 "2005-05-26T17:07:05Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, if one of the most evil women of the 20th century can become a “saint,” I guess it’s up for grabs. She made Eva Peron look like an amatuer, as far as the suffering she caused and the overwhelming success of her PR campaign. How much independent corroboration do we have of the rumors surrounding her? I’ve heard all sorts of things, but it’s hard to know what to believe. Though I suppose if she’s going to become a saint, it makes sense that John Paul II is “the Great” - apparently standards have just fallen a lot among Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/33 "2005-05-26T23:11:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So Benny is Ford to JPII’s Nixon? To further the political analogy- many Catholics seem to be pushing the " JPII subito" thing the way some Republicans pushed/are pushing the “Reagan subito” thing. How many things has RR’s name been affixed to now, and how many are planned? I’m surprised either of the pro- groups allowed their standard bearer to be interred. What’s the rush? It’s not likely either of their names or legacies will slip behind the veil of forgotten history. Let JPII travel the road to sainthood on his own. If his life and forthcoming miracles fit the equation as it was, and not the “dumbed down” version we now have, then his golden halo seems assured. Guess the same can be said for RR. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/34 "2005-05-26T23:32:12Z")
The Pope is not already in heaven. The bible says…For **All** have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. It doesn’t say except the Popes. He will have to wait for Judgement day just like the rest of us. If you believe in this sort of thing anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035/35 "2005-05-27T06:11:38Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > You think the books are somehow magical and holy, but later revelations aren’t? Yeah, but I’m Jewish. > [@](#): > > Why should an old book be treated as the single, perfect source of wisdom in a religion? I’ve never gotten an entirely satisfactory answer on this either. But there’s even an old tale about two of the great sages arguing over a particular point of Jewish law. One has cites from the rest of the Talmud. The other sage knows he’s right, but he can’t prove it. He says “If I’m right, that tree will get up and walk.” G-d makes the tree get up and walk. The other sage says “A walking tree is not an acceptable cite.” This goes on for a while. A river leaves its course. The walls of the house bend inward. “These aren’t acceptable cites!” Finally, G-d talks to the sages. One sage says “You see? I’m right! G-d is my cite!”. The other sage says “G-d is no longer an acceptable cite. He told us so when-” and he cites a passage I can’t remember. The Lord finds himself unable to defeat that argument. He returns to heaven laughing and saying “My children have defeated me.” So we can interpret the Torah. We can do research to make sure our translations are accurate. We can weigh different verses against each other, or combine them. We can try to discover what the Torah says about modern issues. But, we can’t add to it. Back To The OP From the above Jewish perspective, waving the waiting period makes no sense to me. If somebody was truly virtuous, blessed etc I’d think people would still remember them after five years. It seems to me that the waiting period is there for a good reason. Waiting allows a more objective examination of the person and for a thorough review of their life. Instant canonizations would result in people being made saints simply because folks miss them and people got caught up in all the nice eulogies. It might also result (Note that I am NOT suggesting that this is the case with John Paul the second) in some one being made a saint a few months before somebody cleaning out the deceased’s study finds the stash of home movies featuring their long career as a serial killer. What’s the point of a devil’s advocate saying that the person isn’t a saint, and skeptically examining the miracles for scientific explanations if the Pope rushes the process while hinting that the candidate is a saint? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-period-waived-for-hh-pope-john-paul-ii/305035.md?page=1)