# Wal-Mart's unfair labor practices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606 "2005-02-11T17:06:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/41 "2005-02-13T19:29:59Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > For one thing, it limits consumer choice. Say that Walmart chooses not to carry a certain magazine, or a type of food. If Walmart is the only store in town you can afford to shop at, or the only store period, you’re not able to get those items. By forcing out all competition Walmart has become a monopoly in certain areas; therefore, poor people have little choice but to shop there. If Walmart chooses not to carry something, then the people in that area aren’t able to get all the goods they want. Isn’t that kind of a bad thing? If, if, if. If pigs had wings they could fly. Rather than offering a hypothetical, how about documenting instances where this has actually happened. WalMart is NOT a monopoly, plain and simple. I have no doubt that WalMart’s management would love to be a monopoly just as every labor union wishes it was a monopoly, too. Fortunately for all of us, neither is able to fulful that wish. Personally, I hate WalMart and never shopt there. It’s the kind of retail cluster-f\*ck I go out of my way to avoid. But many, many people drive for miles to go to the nearest WalMart to save money. No one forces these customers to do this-- they CHOOSE to shop there. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/42 "2005-02-13T19:38:11Z")
How does Kmart compare? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/43 "2005-02-14T02:25:14Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Not only that, but Wal-Mart’s aggressive tactics are employed for the benefit of the poor as well - they put the screws to their suppliers and force them to operate on razor-thin margins. Those savings are largely passed on to customers. I wonder about the effect of those suppliers having to operate on those “razor-thin” margins. Who do you think works on the production floor of those suppliers? Those same lower- and middle-class people who, ironically, are supposed to be Wal-Mart’s bread and butter customers. If suppliers are forced to accelerate outsourcing, reduce their workforce, cut benefits and wages for their workers, or are driven out of business, that’s bad news for them. It’s not good for their quality of life, or their buying power at Wal-mart or anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/44 "2005-02-14T04:20:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > WalMart is NOT a monopoly, plain and simple. What about if you live in an area where Walmart is the only place that sells hardware in a fifty-mile radius? The only pharmacy? Then you have no choice but to buy what they’re selling, and if they don’t stock something you want or need, you’re SOL. My area’s not quite that bad–there’s still a local pharmacy at least–but there’s many places where Walmart is the only store that stocks certain classes of items such as hardware or craft supplies. Therefore, they hold a monopoly on those towns. The people are a captive audience. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/45 "2005-02-14T05:14:39Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > What about if you live in an area where Walmart is the only place that sells hardware in a fifty-mile radius? The only pharmacy? Then you have no choice but to buy what they’re selling, and if they don’t stock something you want or need, you’re SOL. You have yet to document that this actually occurs. But again, the idea of a physical location defining a monopoly doesn’t hold much wather in the internet age. Show my an iten that “only Walmart caries with a 50 mile radius” of some town, and I’ll give you an internet site (or a dozen) from which it can be ordered. > [@](#): > > My area’s not quite that bad–there’s still a local pharmacy at least–but there’s many places where Walmart is the only store that stocks certain classes of items such as hardware or craft supplies. Therefore, they hold a monopoly on those towns. The people are a captive audience. If there are many, it should be easy for you to list a few of them. Also, please demostrate that there is no internet access for anyone in this ares as well. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/46 "2005-02-14T15:18:50Z")
Actually, I like **Dancing Dead** ’s idea. It’s a point I make in most of these anti-corporate threads. If the union thinks they can make money running a discount retailer at the wage and price levels that they want to impose on Wal-mart, why don’t they buy up the closed store and show us all how it’s done? If this Flickinger guy is correct, and it really is impossible to lose money running a Wal-mart, then they are missing out on a great opportunity. Buy up the location, build up your inventory, hire all the people plus the 15% extra, and make money. Win-win all the way around. Unless, as I suppose might just be possible, there is more to it than they want to admit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/47 "2005-02-14T16:44:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How does Kmart compare?. Bankrupt last time I checked. > [@Dancing Dead](#): > > So, Walmart will close stores that unionize. Does anyone else see a solution to the existence of Walmart right there? > > Seriously. Small businesses would be able to reopen (and hire), suppliers would not be so damaged by the demands of this monstrosity, the ex-employees would be able to make better money in the re-opened stores. No offense but who gives a shit? If I need light bulbs or a toilet brush or lawn chair or something I don’t really care if it comes from the superstore or some mom and pop shop. All I care about is price and convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/48 "2005-02-14T16:47:28Z")
**Laszlo Hollyfeld** > [@](#): > > Now some data NOT from the horse’s ass, I mean, mouth: [Moderator Hat ON] Do NOT call Sam as “horse’s ass” in this forum, Laszlo. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Laszlo\_Hollyfeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a183cd/32.png) [@Laszlo\_Hollyfeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laszlo_Hollyfeld)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/49 "2005-02-14T17:03:19Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > **Laszlo Hollyfeld** > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Do NOT call Sam as “horse’s ass” in this forum, Laszlo. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] Actually, I was referring to Wal-Mart there, as Sam was quoting some data he noted as coming from Wal-Mart and I wanted to comment on that data. I apologize for the confusion - no offense to Sam intended at all. Just a lame attempt at humor. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/50 "2005-02-14T17:56:34Z")
Bottom line here (as in all these kinds of threads): People who work at Walmart or anywhere else do so voluntarily. They are more than free to go work elsewhere…maybe at one of the higher paying retail competitors to Walmart. People who shop there do so voluntarily. They are more than free to go shop somewhere else…maybe, again, at one of the higher priced competitors to Walmart. Why is this simple concept so difficult to understand? > [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > So, is this an example of unfair labor practices? Or should Wal-Mart be allowed to do whatever it wants to increase the bottom line? No, its not unfair labor practice to close a business for any reason (or no reason). Of course Walmart should be allowed to continue to operate their business as they see fit, as long as they stay within the law. If they are doing something illegal then go after them. Otherwise leave them be. If Walmart doesn’t want unions, and they are willing to close stores if unions attempt to form at those stores, then thats their own affair. I guess it never occured to most of you that there might be a REASON Walmart is willing to close a store (and lose that potential revenew) instead of negotiating with the union. Perhaps if you think it through. > [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > In 2003 Wal-Mart revenues were $259 billion. So they donate about .05% of their annual sales (and it’s all tax deductible, of course). Hoo haa. Here’s a fun game - take your own pre-tax salary and multiply by .0005 so you can see just how much you need to donate to be as generous as Wal-Mart! For me it’s $13. So? Its better than no money donated at all. After all, once they have paid their taxes anything else is purely voluntary. And I know plenty of folks who don’t even give the $13 to charity. In addition, your $13 dollars doesn’t exactly compare to the millions Walmart gives away does it? Its like the stupid analogy of Bill Gates only giving me .5% of his salary or you giving me 75% of yours…I’ll take Bill’s .5% thanks. > [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > And of course Wal-Mart chose the Boston region as an example - we’ve got one of the highest costs of living in the country here! Not to mention one of the highest minimum wages. I wonder why they didn’t choose to cite their, say, Mississippi workers wages? Cost of living in Missippi is lower too of course. Again though, bottom line is those workers don’t HAVE to work at Walmart. The fact that Walmart doesn’t seem to have much trouble getting employees kind of says something…or it SHOULD say something if you thought about it some. > [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > And just for fun, I’ll mention that in 2003 Wal-Mart’s president and CEO took in over 500 times the salary of one of those average Boston workers mentioned above. Apples and oranges, of course, but I think Wal-Mart can probably afford to have all their full-time workers live above the poverty line without tanking the company. But that’s just me :rolleyes: Is Walmart making money? Are they successful? Then I guess whatever they are paying the CEO is worth it, no? Its just silly to compare the salary of a CEO to that of a box boy. There is no comparison. As for what Walmart can or can’t afford, how do you know this? Perhaps increasing the salaries across the board would be something they could absorb, or perhaps it wouldn’t be. You simply don’t know because you have no idea how their business is modeled, what their margins are, etc. Increasing the salary of one box boy is probably do-able with little effect…we are talking about 10’s of thousands of box boys, check out girls, etc. THAT could have a serious impact. However, again the bottom line is…that box boy IS working there voluntarily. Why? He could certainly go elsewhere. He isn’t a slave. WHY is he working there if its so bad? > [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > I still think it is a smarmy way to avoid union-busting legislation. All these folks did was try to organize for better pay and benefits, and now they are out of a job. It sucks. Its their business to run as they see fit…as long as they run it within the law. If you don’t like it don’t shop there. If enough people feel the same way it will cut into their market share and they will lose business…and be forced to change or go out of business. The fact remains that currently they are VERY successful at running their business. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > As for the possibility of Walmart not being able to sustain its economic viability if it’s forced to treat its workforce as human beings, I say tough cookies. If the economic survival of your corporation depends on being able to force your workers to work overtime without paying them, then you bloody well deserve to go under. Get a new business model, or get out of town. Again, the employee’s are free to leave any time. They aren’t slaves bound and gagged. If its so bad they can walk out and find a job elsewhere…or go on unemployment. Its ridiculous to say that Walmart should get a new business model when what they are doing is successful just because you don’t like what they are doing. YOU don’t work there and probably don’t shop there either. Let the people who DO work there decide whats best for them. Let the folks who DO shop there decide if they want to continue. As long as Walmart stays within the letter of the law then they can and should do whatever THEY think is best to make their business successful. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/51 "2005-02-14T18:13:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So? Its better than no money donated at all. After all, once they have paid their taxes anything else is purely voluntary. And I know plenty of folks who don’t even give the $13 to charity. In addition, your $13 dollars doesn’t exactly compare to the millions Walmart gives away does it? Its like the stupid analogy of Bill Gates only giving me .5% of his salary or you giving me 75% of yours…I’ll take Bill’s .5% thanks. > -XT What, you want us to give WalMart a fricking medal? Since their entire purpose is to make a profit, their act of charity is probably a calculated effort on their part to make even more money by convincing people that they are helping charities by shopping at WalMart. It’s so people like you can point out how damned generous WalMart is and why everyone should shop there. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/52 "2005-02-14T19:31:13Z")
> [@Laszlo Hollyfeld](#): > > I would argue that Wal-Mart is violating the rules that are in place, albeit in a tricky way. IANAL, but I believe there are laws in place (in Canada and the US) that prevent employers from intimidating or threatening employees into not joining a union. In fact, Wal-Mart has been sued for these practices in the past (see articles I’ve cited in previous posts in this thread). > > So, having been sued over these practices, Wal-Mart instead evades the rules by simply closing the store down (which, I would also argue, is a way of intimidating other Wal-Mart workers who might be thinking of unionizing, but that’s another story). So it’s legal, but it’s really violating the spirit of these laws, i.e. it’s a loophole. And as stated above, I don’t know how to close the loophole - you can’t force them to stay open. > > So it’s not Garnett blocking Boykins shot. It’s Garnett’s blocking Boykins from getting into the arena. OK, that’s a lame analogy, but do you see what I’m getting at? So are you saying that if I say to my SO that if you go out with so-and-so, I will move out, that I am making a threat? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/53 "2005-02-14T21:23:47Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What, you want us to give WalMart a fricking medal? What gave you that idea? I simply said that if I were a charity I’d rather have that .05% (in the form of a hundred million plus) than the 75% of someone making $50k/year. Whats so complicated and where do medals come in? > [@Blalron](#): > > Since their entire purpose is to make a profit, their act of charity is probably a calculated effort on their part to make even more money by convincing people that they are helping charities by shopping at WalMart. It’s so people like you can point out how damned generous WalMart is and why everyone should shop there. Undoubtedly. Who said differently? Its smart for corporations to donate to charities as its good for business…and companies are in the business of making money as the bottom line. Which is why they all do it. Whats silly is to try and compare the percentage a corporation gives away to charity with the percentage a person does…thus my analogy with Bill Gate’s .5% and my 50% of total income. Who was pointing out how generous they were btw? I was making a completely different point…that being that no company HAS to donate to charity at all, as long as they pay their taxes. The fact that companies donate to charity to make themselves look good to future customers is beside the point…as long as the charities get the money. And the raw percentage is meaningless…when we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in donations. I also never said everyone should shop at Walmart (I don’t shop there myself in fact…I hate going in there), in fact I said if you are opposed to their practices you SHOULDN’T shop there. I think you should go back and re-read what I posted…you are drawing some strange conclusions from what I wrote. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Laszlo\_Hollyfeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a183cd/32.png) [@Laszlo\_Hollyfeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laszlo_Hollyfeld)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/54 "2005-02-15T16:16:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Undoubtedly. Who said differently? Its smart for corporations to donate to charities as its good for business…and companies are in the business of making money as the bottom line. Which is why they all do it. Whats silly is to try and compare the percentage a corporation gives away to charity with the percentage a person does…thus my analogy with Bill Gate’s .5% and my 50% of total income. > > Who was pointing out how generous they were btw? I was making a completely different point…that being that no company HAS to donate to charity at all, as long as they pay their taxes. The fact that companies donate to charity to make themselves look good to future customers is beside the point…as long as the charities get the money. And the raw percentage is meaningless…when we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in donations. My post was in direct reply to Sam Stone quoting a long list of Wal-Mart’s “good qualities,” of which the donation figure was one aspect. If you follow the posts, Sam Stone is arguing that Wal-Mart is beneficial, not detrimental, to the communities in which its stores reside. The donation figures, supplied by Wal-Mart itself, are clearly presented to show the generosity of Wal-Mart. As such, it is completely appropriate to compare the percentages. What is silly is to think that I was suggesting that charities would rather get a higher percentage of less money. Of course people want the most money - that’s obvious. But the raw percentage is not meaningless when you are promoting your generosity - just look at the recent debate about the U.S.'s percentage of charitable giving based on its income. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/55 "2005-02-15T16:55:33Z")
According to press reports, the union is considering filing an unfair labour practice against Wal-Mart in connexion with the store closing: [Union takes legal action against Wal-Mart](http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc-walmart20050211) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606/56 "2014-06-29T17:02:01Z")
So, nine years on: Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that Wal-mart infringed Quebec’s labour law by dismissing the employees while contract negotiations were under-way. Wal-mart is potentially liable to pay compensation to each employee, to be determined by an arbitrator. [Quebec unionized Wal-Mart workers win Supreme Court victory](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-unionized-wal-mart-workers-win-supreme-court-victory-1.2689646) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wal-marts-unfair-labor-practices/289606.md?page=2)