# Walloon, you pompous-assed prescriptivist grammar Nazi **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135 "2003-04-25T15:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/21 "2003-04-25T21:23:15Z")
\>\>both “technically incorrect” and “a subjective decision”?\<\< That’s unpossible! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/22 "2003-04-25T21:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > [BWhat, besides how English is used, can possibly decide what constitutes correct usage? > > English has not central body that declares a usage correct or incorrect. > > Language evolves. Quitcher bitchin. > > Daniel \*\* Daniel- great post, I agree 100% However, I though it was a SDMB “no-no” to call anyone a “nazi” or even close to it- even in the PIT? OK, if Walloon was so rude as to correct MY grammar, I’d likely think even worse things about him. Dude- right or wrong- it is just plain RUDE. Skip- the point is- “we ain’t talking in no latin”. Thus, although it is very nice to point out that “media” wouldn’t be a collective noun in the original latin- we usually “speka da inglish” around here. So how do you pronounce “guillotine”? As if you were french? or as if it is now a word that english “borrowed” and thus now has a legit english pronunciation? This is one of my pet peeves- unless you also pronounce “beef”= “boufe”.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/23 "2003-04-25T21:55:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > **However, I though it was a SDMB “no-no” to call anyone a “nazi” or even close to it- even in the PIT?** It’s not meant to be taken literally. Think Jerry Seinfeld and the Soup Nazi. Anyway, I did a search before posting and turned up lots of prior art in the Pit; I don’t recall any of the threads being locked or users being banned… if the practice has since been outlawed, I plead ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/24 "2003-04-25T23:09:39Z")
> [@](#): > > However, I though it was a SDMB “no-no” to call anyone a “nazi” or even close to it- even in the PIT? OK, if Walloon was so rude as to correct MY grammar, I’d likely think even worse things about him. Dude- right or wrong- it is just plain RUDE. To call someone a “Nazi” does not neccesarily mean that their beliefs coincide with those of the National German Socialist Workers Party during Hitler’s reign. If you are unable to see the figurative usage here I severely pity you. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/25 "2003-04-25T23:51:21Z")
I like Bryan Garner’s entry on _media_: > [@](#): > > **media; medium.** Strictly speaking, the first is the plural of the second…But _media_–as a shortened form of _communications media_–is increasingly used as a mass noun…; that usage still makes some squeamish, but it must be accepted as standard… > > But it’s still possible to draw the line at _medias_, which has recently raised its ugly head… From _A Dictionary of modern American Usage_, p. 423. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/26 "2003-04-26T00:08:50Z")
Is Walloon British by any chance? I don’t think I’ve **ever** heard anyone use media- while refering to mass media- in the US as a plural noun before. It’s always the collective singular " the media," since it’s referring to one thing as a whole. Recently, however, I’ve heard some hyper-correctness on the radio, and certain DJs have bizarrely started referring to singular band names in the plural format. " Incubus are releasing a new cd. " " Seether are going to appear on Letterman." Sure, there’s more than one person in the band, but it’s just one band. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/27 "2003-04-26T00:37:04Z")
Media, as it refers to TV, newspaper, internet, and other forms of information transmission, is plural. Those are all mediums. _The_ media, as it refers to CNN, New York Times, MSNBC, World News Weekly, Fox News, etc., is singular. It’s a collective noun. It is a new(ish) usage of the word, as the media hasn’t been a major force until recent years. Traditionalists, whose minds seem to be firmly planted in the time of Shakespeare, are slowly beginning to accept this particular bit of language change, as well as others. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/28 "2003-04-26T00:45:21Z")
I’m so glad this thread was started. I was reading a thread just the other day and noticed **Walloon** randomly correct someones grammer. The hell? It’s totally uneccesary and quite rude, IMHO. Most of us here on this board are not children, and would prefer not to be treated as such. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/29 "2003-04-26T00:46:43Z")
And yes, I know the above post is chalk _full_ of errors. And I don’t give a flying fuck. Take _that_ **Walloon**! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/30 "2003-04-26T00:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, I know the above post is **chalk** full of errors. Er, that’s ‘chock’… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalvinHobbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CalvinHobbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalvinHobbes)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/31 "2003-04-26T01:00:26Z")
It looks to me like **Walloon** just looks for posts that he can correct. The links I followed in the OP seem to support that. It’s not like he was contributing to the thread in any constructive way. The fact that he just pops in with a correction is what bothers me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/32 "2003-04-26T02:34:35Z")
There is a non-trivial reason for questioning the use of _media_’s number – the assumption that “the media” is a monolithic institution with a particular POV, as in “The liberal media never criticizes the Clintons the way they do the Bushes.” But it can be used as a collective, which in American usage is singular, or as a grouping of “mediums” (excuse the solecism; the only thing a grouping of mediums would do is hold a collective seance) which is plural. And the Congress are considering a law to make that official! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/33 "2003-04-26T03:16:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*…OK, if Walloon was so rude as to correct MY grammar, I’d likely think even worse things about him. Dude- right or wrong- it is just plain RUDE. > > Skip- the point is- “we ain’t talking in no latin”. Thus, although it is very nice to point out that “media” wouldn’t be a collective noun in the original latin- we usually “speka da inglish” around here… \*\* Well, I don’t agree with the judgement that correcting another’s grammar is automatically rude (in the cases where the correcting person is at least trying to be polite), but I can definitely see where you (and others, obviously) might feel that way. And, yes, I know we ain’t be speakin’ no funny dead jive no more (_Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur._), but that wasn’t my point; nor was it ever that the language doesn’t ever change. My points were thus: 1.) In my opinion, **Walloon** wasn’t rude in his corrections (from the posts I read), and… 2.) At this point in time, the acceptance of “media” as a collective noun isn’t quite there yet (at least by the majority of those who write the books to which we refer when we have questions like these; and it’s these experts to whom _I_ normally defer), so his correction was, technically, correct. That said, I really don’t mind that people use “media” as a collective noun; hell, I’m fairly sure I’ve done so myself many a time–and I’ll probably continue to do so in the future. As I mentioned earlier in this thread: it’s no skin off my back what form of the language you employ. As long as I can understand your intent, it don’t matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/34 "2003-04-26T03:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **But it can be used as a collective, which in American usage is singular, or as a grouping of “mediums” (excuse the solecism; the only thing a grouping of mediums would do is hold a collective seance) which is plural.** Right. Recently covered in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176083). ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/35 "2003-04-26T03:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > **2.) At this point in time, the acceptance of “media” as a collective noun isn’t quite there yet (at least by the majority of those who write the books to which we refer when we have questions like these; and it’s these experts to whom _I_ normally defer), so his correction was, technically, correct.** Can you make the same statement with respect to books published in the last decade? or the last five years? I don’t know for sure, but I doubt it. The idea of _media_ as incorrect in the singular has been losing ground for almost a century, and many _current_ writers–as **mhendo** illustrated, citing an authoritative source published in _1998_–accept as standard the usage of _media_ as a collective singular. If you go back far enough, you can find a preponderating number of published grammarians supporting almost any outdated notion. But the language is dynamic, not static, as **DanielWithrow** has already argued very persuasively, and the fact that the older grammars use the old rules doesn’t neccessarily mean that the rules haven’t changed. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/36 "2003-04-26T04:20:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by brianmelendez \* > \*\*Can you make the same statement with respect to books published in the last decade? or the last five years? I don’t know for sure, but I doubt it. The idea of _media_ as incorrect in the singular has been losing ground for almost a century, and many _current_ writers–as **mhendo** illustrated, citing an authoritative source published in _1998_–accept as standard the usage of _media_ as a collective singular. If you go back far enough, you can find a preponderating number of published grammarians supporting almost any outdated notion. But the language is dynamic, not static, as **DanielWithrow** has already argued very persuasively, and the fact that the older grammars use the old rules doesn’t neccessarily mean that the rules haven’t changed. \*\* Admittedly, **brianmelendez** , I’m not at work right now, so my access to grammar books and/or guides is pretty much _nada_; thus I’m unable, tonight, to provide you with original publication dates. Still, I’m including the following links from various educational institutions and professional writers. True, not all of them actually mention the collective noun attribute of “media”, so take from them what you will. And once again: I don’t disagree with **DanielWithrow** (or anyone else for that matter) on the fluidity of language evolution. [1,](http://www.uaf.edu/univrel/guide/style/mz.html) [2,](http://www.lvc.edu/psychology/guides/guide-grammer.html) [3,](http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/td/1064/td1064appd.html) [4,](http://pt3.nau.edu/resources/toolbox/what-are_Media.htm) [5,](http://english.utb.edu/courses/composition1/02-02-01.htm) [6,](http://www.asc.upenn.edu/courses/comm334CGS/writingguide.htm) [7,](http://www.lcsc.edu/education/student/annmabeus/exammt.html) [8,](http://www.cmsu.edu/writingcenter/stand49.htm) [9,](http://grammar.uoregon.edu/agreement/agreequiz1/incorrect10.html) [10,](http://ie3global.oregonstate.edu/costa1a.html) [11,](http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/paterson/writing.htm) [12,](http://www.hardnewscafe.usu.edu/archive/nov2000/1129_slade.html) [13,](http://fly.hiwaay.net/~jmcmulle/314tut1feedback.htm) [14.](http://psych.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64ContentFiles/CommunicationsTechnologies/Communication.html) My personal favorite is #9, where the author left out an article and failed to separate “the” from “media” so as to differentiate between the phrase and the word. But I included it because, hey, it agrees with me. I mean, everyone else does it. Right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/37 "2003-04-26T04:44:42Z")
I have nothing to add to the discussion except to say that _Perhaps naturalists are observing the behaviors of semicolons in the wild?_ made me laugh out loud! ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/38 "2003-04-26T04:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ellen Cherry \* > \*\*I have nothing to add to the discussion except to say that > > _Perhaps naturalists are observing the behaviors of semicolons in the wild?_ > > made me laugh out loud! \*\* I laughed at it myself. It rather reminded me of a passage in one of Tom Robbin’s books where he mused about the rectal temperature of a bumblebee, and how, although it’s assumed the temperature is 110.8, no one really knows. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean it can’t be or won’t be done. Scientific research marches on: perhaps at this moment, bee proctologists as Du Pont. . . 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/39 "2003-04-26T04:53:43Z")
I still can’t believe that you don’t think it’s rude to jump into a thread just to correct someone’s grammar! Do you correct people in everyday conversations? Do you send people their letters and emails back with corrections? Do you complain to the manager in the grocery store when the sign says “potatos?” Geesh. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135/40 "2003-04-26T04:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > Do you complain to the manager in the grocery store when the sign says “potatos?” > > Geesh. Well, no, but I won’t buy 'em either. I mean, if they need the quotes to make it clear that somebody else claims that they’re potatoes but that they won’t guarantee that they are themselves, I want nothing to do with those tubers! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walloon-you-pompous-assed-prescriptivist-grammar-nazi/171135.md?page=3)