# Walmart - Good or bad for America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197 "2005-11-15T19:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_God_of_Frogs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/41 "2005-11-16T04:33:36Z")
Walmart is good for America, in the sense that being very succesful is often the best way to expose systemic flaws. When Walmart [talks](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975919) about discriminating against people with high medical costs, for instance, it only helps point towards the need for universal health coverage. Don’t forget that Walmart even recently [came out](http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/25/news/fortune500/walmart_wage/) in favor of raising the minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/42 "2005-11-16T04:59:41Z")
> [@annewaldron](#): > > So maybe I can make a tandoori recipe. Can I make sushi? I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Sushi at WalMart? I certainly hope no one tries to! Or, are you bemoaning the massive closures of retail sushi shops throught rural America as WalMart rolls into town? ---
**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/43 "2005-11-16T05:25:14Z")
Maybe I’m not exactly sure what the point is I’m trying to make. Wal-Mart seems, to me, to be representative of a great loss of community in America. And maybe it’s not just Wal-mart and maybe it didn’t even start with Wal-Mart, but I know they’re a part of it. So I’ll bow out gracefully and keep reading here. But I stand firmly by my opinion that I’d rather shop elsewhere! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/44 "2005-11-16T06:23:48Z")
> [@annewaldron](#): > > …But I stand firmly by my opinion that I’d rather shop elsewhere! 😃 Believe it or not, I feel pretty much the same way. As I said earlier, I dislike the place intensely, and never shop there. But the question “Is Walmart Good for America” just begs the REAL question: Does it really matter, and is any other alternative better? The WalMart geni can’t be put back in the bottle. WalMart is much, much more than “pay them a pittance, and treat them like slaves.” It’s about a radical new method of inventory control and price negotiations with suppliers. It’s about the leveraging of cheap labor in emerging countries. You can’t turn the clock back in China to the 1960s. You can’t close off the borders and forbid imports. You can’t shield inefficient manufacturers and retails from the consequences of competition. Or, rather, if you do those things, the consequences will almost certainly be worse. And with the internet being what it is, the emergence of virtual WalMarts is darn near inevitiable. The real question to ask is: Given WalMart, what should consumers, manufacturers, reatailers, and the government do? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/45 "2005-11-16T06:59:54Z")
I’m surprised it was only barely touched upon - possibly it’s because many Americans no longer feel that unions are necessary or beneficial - however it can certainly be argued that the well-documented union busting that Walmart employs is hardly a good thing for the country since if you marginalize a country’s work force you are marginalizing the country. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/46 "2005-11-16T14:23:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Doesn’t Sears and JC Penny both have full catalogs? Sears I’m sure of as we still get the catalog. Thanks - that’s exactly the sort of thing I was fishing for: places you could order by phone from a catalog, that wouldn’t be completely out of the ballpark of someone who was in the Wal-Mart Shopper economic bracket. Sears is perfect in that respect. They’re a step up the ladder from WallyWorld, pricewise, but hardly a huge step up. And if you can get it at Wal-Mart, you can probably get it at Sears too. I had no idea they still mailed out their catalog; for some reason I thought it had gone by the wayside. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![LionelHutz405](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lionelhutz405/32/536_2.png) [@LionelHutz405](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LionelHutz405)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/47 "2005-11-16T15:00:15Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > You’ll find my thoughts about WalMart in [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343355&highlight=WalMart) - to summarize my position, I think the free market is good and you can’t have a working free market when one entity controls too big a piece of the pie. Walmart **has** a big piece of the pie. That is not the same as controlling it. They got that big piece by making smart business decisions and they can lose it by making dumb ones. General Motors and IBM also at one time had a big piece of the pie and lost it through bad decisions and failure to respond to a changing marketplace. The same could happen to Walmart. ---
**Author:** ![LionelHutz405](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lionelhutz405/32/536_2.png) [@LionelHutz405](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LionelHutz405)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/48 "2005-11-16T15:04:46Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > Walmart censors the music and movies they sell. In my opinion, that is a loathsome practice, so I will not shop there. Doesn’t that apply to pretty well every store? Most don’t carry hardcore porn, for example. That’s censoring the movies they sell. If you refuse to shop at a store because they ‘censor’ the kind of movies they sell, your choices are going to be extremely limited. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/49 "2005-11-16T15:19:42Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I’m surprised it was only barely touched upon - possibly it’s because many Americans no longer feel that unions are necessary or beneficial - however it can certainly be argued that the well-documented union busting that Walmart employs is hardly a good thing for the country since if you marginalize a country’s work force you are marginalizing the country. Illegal union busting is bad for the country, and should be prosecuted to full extent of the law. If there are cases that are “well documented”, but not prosecuted, you might want to look more closely at that documentation. A Company does and should have to right to fight off a union (using legal means). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/50 "2005-11-16T15:45:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I had no idea they still mailed out their catalog; for some reason I thought it had gone by the wayside. I stand corrected. You have to request it (I think you always did though), but here is a [link](http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/home.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=SEARS&sid=I0077200010000100064) to their web site (just look under the Catalog section), and you can request it there or call them. I don’t know if you are that interested except as an intellectual excersize, but thought I’d put it in since I looked it up last night. JC Penny also still has a catalog service (I think they are about the same price range/quality as Sears…I honestly don’t shop at either of these stores either so I don’t know) but I won’t link to that unless someone wants it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/51 "2005-11-16T15:49:38Z")
The thing that bugs me is that so many people have bought the idea they Wallyworld always has the lowest price on everything. They don’t. They often have loss leaders that bring people in but they’re not lower across the board. The company I work for is a wholesaler for a specific market and I know that our customers can beat Wal_Mart on many items that they use frequently. But that’s more an issue with uneducated or unobservant consumers rather than the Wal_Mart itself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/52 "2005-11-16T16:00:31Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > The thing that bugs me is that so many people have bought the idea they Wallyworld always has the lowest price on everything. They don’t. They often have loss leaders that bring people in but they’re not lower across the board. Yep, they’re good marekters. Most stores know that the critical thing is to get people into the store first, then try to get them to buy all kinds of stuff. WalMart just seems to do that a little better than the competition. As more and more people get computer savvy, though, I have to think that this will be harder and harder to do, especially for the bigger ticket items. Information (widely available on the net) is the consumers’ friend, and the retailers’ enemy. We want IN-for-MA-tion! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/53 "2005-11-16T16:09:52Z")
> [@David](#): > > Don’t forget that Walmart even recently [came out](http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/25/news/fortune500/walmart_wage/) in favor of raising the minimum wage. I’m not a Wal-Mart basher by any means. But use a little common sense. If the minimum wage is raised, it doesn’t hurt Wal-Mart very much. They have a healthy profit margin. But that hike puts a further burden on those mom and pop stores and their staffing - and, as has been pointed out, may of them are just getting by. If Wal-Mart beats these stores in the marketplace, I don’t shed too many tears. But I see no reason to help Wal-Mart out here through legislation, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Powell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Billy\_Powell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Powell)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/54 "2005-11-16T18:24:28Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > The thing that bugs me is that so many people have bought the idea they Wallyworld always has the lowest price on everything. They don’t. They often have loss leaders that bring people in but they’re not lower across the board. The company I work for is a wholesaler for a specific market and I know that our customers can beat Wal_Mart on many items that they use frequently. But that’s more an issue with uneducated or unobservant consumers rather than the Wal_Mart itself. Thanks for saying this. I just yesterday discovered that my locally-owned fitness shop prices their olympic weight plates at $0.10 cheaper per pound than Walmart. I’ll have the pleasure of returning several hundred pounds of steel to my nearest Walmart, thanks to their 90-day return policy, and come out the richer in sheer weight acquired, but the ability to upgrade a few hex dumbbells to boot. I’ve yet to see a Tandoori oven or vinegared, seasoned, pre-cooked rice at a local Walmart, but even if I did, I’d be more interested in continuing to source my ingredients at trusted suppliers. The concept of a megastore is not alien to, for instance, the same culture which can, in the U.S., produce red-tinged “Tandoori chicken,” or even a hyper-sophisticated pre-made California Roll ™, but it doesn’t mean that a US-equivalent store should be capable of providing any nominally-satisfactory stopgap will be equally able to provide goods of a quality which is sufficient to the nose of a relatively discriminating consumer. Low-quality goods abound, even in the boutique sector. Caveat emptor. Ask anyone, they’ll tell you that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/55 "2005-11-16T18:41:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Now a company like WalMart will oppose any such plan, since they get an advantage versus their rivals who do not use government subsidies. I don’t understand this part. How does WalMart maintain its edge of not paying for employee benefits (for some of their employees)? How does it prevent every other corporation in America from eliminating benefits to its employees, and undercutting the competition? What’s preventing the race to the bottom, in other words? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/56 "2005-11-16T18:47:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Illegal union busting is bad for the country, and should be prosecuted to full extent of the law. If there are cases that are “well documented”, but not prosecuted, you might want to look more closely at that documentation. A Company does and should have to right to fight off a union (using legal means). One can be “union busting” and do so legally (if not ethically). What is well-documented is that Walmart has thwarted attempts to unionize at every step. Oh, and it should be noted that the National Labor Relations Board and others have contended that Walmart is breaking the law. In two occassions where employees did vote to unionize - in Canada and Texas - Walmart’s response was to shut down those departments and fire everyone. Please see [a letter from Representative Raúl M. Grijalva](http://www.house.gov/grijalva/press/press_releases/pr_021805.html) which echoes the sentiments of 35 other Representatives where such tactics are exposed for what they are. There are many more citations online. I concede most are directly from biased sources, however many contain factual information as reported in reputable news sources. Not only Michael Moore-inspired writers and documentarians have a problem with Walmart’s tactics with regard to unions. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/57 "2005-11-16T21:30:42Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Not only Michael Moore-inspired writers and documentarians have a problem with Walmart’s tactics with regard to unions. Some of us applaud them. Unions are an outdated concept, unneeded anymore, that do little except suck life out of the economy and penalize the very workers they purport to “help”. I say good on Wal Mart for keeping them out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/58 "2005-11-16T21:58:48Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > One can be “union busting” and do so legally (if not ethically). What is well-documented is that Walmart has thwarted attempts to unionize at every step. > > Oh, and it should be noted that the National Labor Relations Board and others have contended that Walmart is breaking the law. In two occassions where employees did vote to unionize - in Canada and Texas - Walmart’s response was to shut down those departments and fire everyone. > > Please see [a letter from Representative Raúl M. Grijalva](http://www.house.gov/grijalva/press/press_releases/pr_021805.html) which echoes the sentiments of 35 other Representatives where such tactics are exposed for what they are. There are many more citations online. I concede most are directly from biased sources, however many contain factual information as reported in reputable news sources. > > Not only Michael Moore-inspired writers and documentarians have a problem with Walmart’s tactics with regard to unions. Then change the law. Don’t expect corporations to operate beyond what the law demands when it’s not in their interest to do so. There are good and bad things about unions just as there are good and bad things about corporations. Employees have every right to try and form one, but corporations have no obligation to try and avoid having to deal with one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/59 "2005-11-16T22:01:23Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Some of us applaud them. Unions are an outdated concept, unneeded anymore, Yeah, workers are doing so well without their help. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > that do little except suck life out of the economy If you see “the economy” as something that is fine if the pie’s getting bigger, even as a lot of people’s pieces of the pie are getting smaller, then there are times when you may be right. > [@](#): > > and penalize the very workers they purport to “help”. I say good on Wal Mart for keeping them out. It would be a shame if the workers were actually allowed to decide this for themselves. Your corporate paternalism is soooo chivalrous, practically reeking with _noblesse oblige_. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197/60 "2005-11-16T22:07:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t know if you are that interested except as an intellectual excersize Strictly academic, but thanks anyway. Since places like Sears have catalogs, it definitely lessens the difference it might otherwise make when Wal-Mart squeezes other retailers out of a town. So I’ve got to abandon my argument that it matters much when that happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-good-or-bad-for-america/331197.md?page=4)