Walmart - Good or bad for America?

[RTFirefly]

@John Mace

Well, I thought you said most people didn’t need the low prices at WalMart. Are you changing that positoin now? At most you’ve made an argument that people need WalMart for emergency shopping. But WalMart can’t survive on only that type of business anyway.

Even if you’re in the Wal-Mart Shopper economic bracket, chances are not everything you buy there is necessary to your survival; that DVD you just bought for $7.49 is something you can cut if prices there go up. But if you’re in the Wal-Mart Shopper economic bracket, and you order clothes from L.L. Bean as more than a once-in-awhile thing, you’ll be pwned, as the kids say, by your credit-card company.

That was one of the points I was making. You claim most people don’t NEED the low prices of WalMart, and while I agree that’s true, there is the very low end economic segment that DOES need those low prices.

No, I’m saying that for the most part they need Wal-Mart prices, but most of them can still afford some extras - at Wal-Mart prices. Can they pay L.L.Bean prices? Fuck, no. But along with the other stuff they’re buying because they have to, most of them can buy some cheap-shit luxuries, too, like the $7.49 DVD.

But my point is, a decent-paying job and universal health care would solve a lot more of their problems than Extra-Low Prices will.

I, for instance, hate WalMart and refuse to shop there. But I don’t begruge others who do want to shop there. People flock to those stores not just in areas where they’re the “only choice”, but in suburb after suburb across the country where plenty of choice abounds.

If we held a referendum nationwide tomorrow to keep or get rid of WalMart, what do you think the result would be? (Actually we have a referrendum every day, as people vote with their feet.) We keep hearing about how great these Mom and Pop stores are. I’d like to see some statistics about inventory, price, wages and benefits at Mom-and-Pop-Mart vs WalMart. I’d be very surprised if they were any better.

Perhaps the Democrats should campaign on a platform to get rid of WalMart and see where that gets them. I’m sure it’ll go over big in Manhattan and Hollywood, but not so well in the bulk of the country.

This must be directed at someone else, but I’m not sure who. But it’s rebutting points I haven’t made, and wasn’t particularly intending to.

My proposed remedies, if you recall, were universal health care, and ways to make union organizing easier and less risky.

I in fact agree that Wal-Mart provides a lot more choices than Mom-and-Pop-Mart, and is pretty damned convenient in many ways. I don’t believe Wal-Mart should be legislated or referendumed out of existence anymore than any other business should. My point was that, regardless of one’s reasons for desiring not to do business with a particular concern, we’re all better served when one doesn’t have to go to another city to do so. My MIL, for instance, is a working-class Southern Baptist who’s voted for Bush twice, God help her, and has no ideological axe to grind with Wal-Mart. But even she chafes at the fact of their near-unavoidability.

[John_Mace]

@RTFirefly

Even if you’re in the Wal-Mart Shopper economic bracket, chances are not everything you buy there is necessary to your survival; that DVD you just bought for $7.49 is something you can cut if prices there go up.

Of course it isn’t. I never claimed it was. You were the one who claimed that some people HAD to shop at WalMart-- I just said that they had other choices for at least the non-necessities.

But if you’re in the Wal-Mart Shopper economic bracket, and you order clothes from L.L. Bean as more than a once-in-awhile thing, you’ll be pwned, as the kids say, by your credit-card company.

There are plenty of places in-between LL Bean and WalMart, pricewise.

No, I’m saying that for the most part they need Wal-Mart prices, but most of them can still afford some extras - at Wal-Mart prices. Can they pay L.L.Bean prices? Fuck, no. But along with the other stuff they’re buying because they have to, most of them can buy some cheap-shit luxuries, too, like the $7.49 DVD.

I don’t understand your point. Do you begrudge a poor person the opportunity to buy a cheap DVD?

But my point is, a decent-paying job and universal health care would solve a lot more of their problems than Extra-Low Prices will.

Of course a “decent” paying job and health insurance would be wonderful. Problem is, I don’t see people willing to pay for those things.

This must be directed at someone else, but I’m not sure who. But it’s rebutting points I haven’t made, and wasn’t particularly intending to.

My proposed remedies, if you recall, were universal health care, and ways to make union organizing easier and less risky.

I in fact agree that Wal-Mart provides a lot more choices than Mom-and-Pop-Mart, and is pretty damned convenient in many ways. I don’t believe Wal-Mart should be legislated or referendumed out of existence anymore than any other business should. My point was that, regardless of one’s reasons for desiring not to do business with a particular concern, we’re all better served when one doesn’t have to go to another city to do so. My MIL, for instance, is a working-class Southern Baptist who’s voted for Bush twice, God help her, and has no ideological axe to grind with Wal-Mart. But even she chafes at the fact of their near-unavoidability.

Yes, that was directed at the thread as a whole, as other people are making those arguments.

[Yeticus_Rex]

An anecdote: The first time I went to Wal-Mart this entire year was to get a bottle of my favorite cologne. It was certainly closer and cheaper for me to go to Wal-Mart instead of a department store at the mall…the only two places I know withing a 30 mile radius that sells this cologne. This ONE day I go there (last month), I walk-in and go straight to the perfume counter to get the ONE item I want, and as I get there, the counters were empty and being pallet jacked away. The girl (about 21ish) was boxing the last few colognes and perfumes and so I ask her she could help me get a bottle of Paul Sebastian.

Her: “Sorry, no can do…come back in 3 days when we get our new counters installed and the cologne restocked.”
Me: “Nope, I will go to the mall and pay the extra $5 or $10. Thanks letting me come 3 feet away from the only item I needed and not purchasing it. Have a great Wal-Mart day.” :wally
I wanted to tell you this anecdote despite the reason that Wal-Mart has every damn legal reason to be on this planet, but still there are always other competitors who are more than willing to provide the niches (the contraception, the adult oriented CDs and DVDs) that another poster had mentioned, let alone my PS cologne. And who the hell says the Mom n’ Pop stores are always better? Those are the ones who usually pay minimum wage, no benefits, little to no raises and higher prices to boot! No lines at M&Ps? Big Deal! You gotta provide more convenience than that. Do you think M&Ps pay a living wage or a full time job? Very doubtful, unless it’s the only big store in town.

Another double standard I see…our standard of living is in the stratosphere even to the point that the poor of other countries come here to work these jobs or heaven forbid, become welfare recipients. Why wouldn’t we outsource and purchase from abroad to raise their standard of living? Creating a job economy abroad to raise their standard should be in everyone’s best interest…unless you are a protectionist…or union. As I looked at the OPs cite at the list of backers…there in the middle, isolated from the quasi-legit groups of concerned citizens (further below the “Christian Alliance for Progress” snerk), there are the parties who are really slighted…SEIU, UFCW, AFL/CIO, & Teamsters. Ah, another lavish attempt to unionize under the guise of millions of protesting customers who don’t want low prices or jobs in their community!

[following tdn’s first post (which I pretty much agree with) with hyperbole]
Wanna bring Wal-Mart to her knees? Go buy the stock!!! If there are truely millions of you, then you can truely control the company! If there is a united group that is really wanting a change of Wal-Mart’s policies and practices, this is the best legitimate way of CONTROLLING the whole damn company! As a voting block, you could vote out the board and install your union heads to replace them or some other socially conscious rabelrouser instead and start making new policies…higher wages, more hours, more benefits, Golden 55 Plans, 401Ks and IRAs, and 6 weeks of vacation. What the hell, give the stock away too! It’s a great incentive! Wonder which way the stock will go after 3 years?
[/hyp]

Serously though, Wal-Mart found it’s niche and exploited it Big Time while other companies snoozed. Some feel that it’s time to penalize them for being too efficient with the capitalist model. Bah, let the market do the correcting, or the courts bust them up like Ma Bell.

[xanthous]

Actually, I’ve been thinking about this one a lot- mostly because my sister shops for her family at Wal-Mart and doesn’t understand the anti-Wal-Mart sentiment. I’ve been trying to give her a good argument that shows both sides of the argument clearly (because IMHO I think the whole argument favors being anti-Wal-Mart).

Here’s my perspective:
I had an “alternative” (read: art school) graduate education. Which shaped me and my perspective a great deal. I’m the only one in my family who likes sushi, foreign films, fine art, poetry, opera, hand-made clothing, etc, etc, etc.

The basic point: I’m not going to find any of that at Wal-Mart. But if the few are going to have to succumb to the needs/desires of the many because of the going-away of mom/pops as they get sucked into the black hole of Wal-Mart (and others like it), I think that is a HUGE bummer.

Face it- you can’t make a Tandoori recipe with Wal-Mart ingredients. So are we going to be forced into becoming a Hamburger Helper culture because of corporations that are successful at exploiting capitalism?

[XT]

@annewaldron

Face it- you can’t make a Tandoori recipe with Wal-Mart ingredients. So are we going to be forced into becoming a Hamburger Helper culture because of corporations that are successful at exploiting capitalism?

2 points. One would be that most folks who are enslaved to Walmart (according to some in this thread) aren’t going to make Tandoori…they are going to either go somewhere else to get what they need or order the stuff they need online. Secondly, are you trying to say that your local Walmart is not only the sole place for you to buy goods but also the sole place for you to buy food as well? I’ve lived in a few rural towns myself and I’ve NEVER heard of a place where the local Walmart (or Super Walmart I gues…aren’t they the only one’s with food?) is the only business in town where you can buy anything.

Your personal problem is the snob factor…you don’t like Walmart because its too lower class or not elite enough. Thats fine…its also one of the reasons I don’t shop there (I hate the lines, I hate the crush of people, I hate the layouts of the stores and I hate the service). But I realize that MY tastes aren’t those of my fellows, and I don’t expect businesses to cater to a minority…not when they are losing money. If Walmart is successful but Bob’s Tandoori Mart isn’t, well, thats my lookout…guess I’ll have to get my Tandoori somewhere else.

/rant mode

In these threads its like folks expect businesses to cater to their wants and needs, even if they lose money. ‘Welp, Ma and Pa stores were good enough for the peasantry before, why shouldn’t it remain so for ever? Why should a Walmart be able to come in and under cut the Ma and Pa stores prices, drive them out of bidness by providing the community with what it obviously wants. Don’t dem peasants know whats good for them??!?’ And all so the elite don’t need to go into such a cheesy story for their needs but can go into a quaint little Ma and Pa store and feel good about it. 'Course, the elites can go where ever they want, order on line, and get their Tandoori from William Sonomia.

To make themselves feel better they cloak their concern in croc tears for the masses. Poor folks…they have to shop at Walmart where they can get what they need in one place cheaply…instead of having to drive around to all those quaint places and pay more for the privilage. Plus they beat their chests about all those manufacturing jobs Walmart sends to those damn slant eyed Chynee! Forget the fact that the US has been shedding manufacturing jobs for decades…if the Ma and Pa stores just stayed in bidniz they would only use good ole Amerikan goods manufactured right here in the USA! In fact, they would singlehandedly reverse the trend of manufacturing jobs going over to the wogs across the big water! So sad.

AND they are forced to work at Wally world…FORCED I TELL YOU! :mad: They have absolutely no choice in the matter. They are slaves, serfs to Wally world for now and for ever! Walmart simply takes over a town driving every single other business out of, er, business. In fact, they take over the local government as well, they run the police force, they even take over the local farms or fisheries! If you don’t work for Walmart you simply can’t work. Plus they put the towns into a kind of warp thingy so you can’t get out to go work in another town…seriously. They are definitely rat bastards of the lowest order!

/end rant mode.
Notice for the humor impaired!

Ok, most of that was just for fun…but I have to say, it WAS pretty damn fun. Yeah, it was hyperbole…big time.

-XT

[Weirddave]

@annewaldron

Actually, I’ve been thinking about this one a lot- mostly because my sister shops for her family at Wal-Mart and doesn’t understand the anti-Wal-Mart sentiment. I’ve been trying to give her a good argument that shows both sides of the argument clearly (because IMHO I think the whole argument favors being anti-Wal-Mart).

Here’s my perspective:
I had an “alternative” (read: art school) graduate education. Which shaped me and my perspective a great deal. I’m the only one in my family who likes sushi, foreign films, fine art, poetry, opera, hand-made clothing, etc, etc, etc.

The basic point: I’m not going to find any of that at Wal-Mart. But if the few are going to have to succumb to the needs/desires of the many because of the going-away of mom/pops as they get sucked into the black hole of Wal-Mart (and others like it), I think that is a HUGE bummer.

Face it- you can’t make a Tandoori recipe with Wal-Mart ingredients. So are we going to be forced into becoming a Hamburger Helper culture because of corporations that are successful at exploiting capitalism?

Why should Wal Mart be forced to sell nitch items that very few people want? You’re the only one in your entire family who would buy them, while everyone else is presumably buying stuff that Wally World does sell. Why should they sell stuff that only a fraction of the public will buy?

[Little_Nemo]

You’ll find my thoughts about WalMart in this recent thread - to summarize my position, I think the free market is good and you can’t have a working free market when one entity controls too big a piece of the pie.

[Voyager]

We as a society wish to afford all people access to some kind of health care. (If you think people should die or else go bankrupt to get healthcare, we can start another thread.)

WalMart (and other places like it) do not provide adequate wages or benefits for a significant number of its employees to afford healthcare. They do this to lower prices. Therefore, the employees go on Medicaid. paid for by my and your taxes, in order to survive. Thus, our taxes are subsidizing both the low prices paid by WalMart shoppers (not me) and WalMart corporate profits. Smells like socialism to me.

I think we should charge back the cost of social services forced on us by cheapskate companies back to the companies. They can decide how to handle it - either pay the state, provide better benefits, or provide in-house health services. Fine with me. But companies like Costco who actually pay decent wages and benefits are getting hurt by the government subsidies for those who don’t.

Republicans should hate WalMart more than liberals. Lets lower our taxes by making WalMart and its ilk pay its fair share.

[John_Mace]

@annewaldron

Face it- you can’t make a Tandoori recipe with Wal-Mart ingredients.

Are you sure?

Ethnic Indian Foods

The world of Ethnic food and drink is constantly evolving. Indian Foods Company works with key players in the Food Industry to help manage this development. Since 1986 Indian Foods Company has worked to develop the market for Indian ethnic food and drink in partnership with ingredient suppliers, own-label manufacturers, producers of major Indian brands, supermarkets and independent retailers.

<snip>

Clients include

* Byerly's
* Lunds Markets
* Hillers markets
* Kowalski's Market
* Radisson Hotels
* Walmart
* Taj Group of Hotels, India

[John_Mace]

@annewaldron

So are we going to be forced into becoming a Hamburger Helper culture because of corporations that are successful at exploiting capitalism?

Again, are you sure?

Food merchants must know their niche

Despite the challenge of finding the right mix, ethnic foods are getting more attention at mass. Wal-Mart has been at the forefront with its “store of the community” concept that tailors each store’s mix based on demographics. In some heavily Hispanic markets, for example, supercenters might carry multiple imported Mexican brands in grocery and health & beauty aids.

“Wal-Mart is always evolving and adding ethnic food and ethnic HBA items to its product mix. We will continue to grow both areas, as it is what our customers in our local communities have come to expect,” said Jose R. Gomez, a Wal-Mart spokesman.

In recent years, Wal-Mart has expanded its Hispanic dairy, bakery, meat, snack and HBA selections. The number of ethnic food SKUs varies, depending on the market.

Please note that I’m not saying WalMart needs to supply ethnic foods in order to justify its existence. But, if you’re going to make assertions, you should at least no what you’re talking about.

@Voyager

We as a society wish to afford all people access to some kind of health care. (If you think people should die or else go bankrupt to get healthcare, we can start another thread.)

WalMart (and other places like it) do not provide adequate wages or benefits for a significant number of its employees to afford healthcare. They do this to lower prices. Therefore, the employees go on Medicaid. paid for by my and your taxes, in order to survive. Thus, our taxes are subsidizing both the low prices paid by WalMart shoppers (not me) and WalMart corporate profits. Smells like socialism to me.

I think we should charge back the cost of social services forced on us by cheapskate companies back to the companies. They can decide how to handle it - either pay the state, provide better benefits, or provide in-house health services. Fine with me. But companies like Costco who actually pay decent wages and benefits are getting hurt by the government subsidies for those who don’t.

Republicans should hate WalMart more than liberals. Lets lower our taxes by making WalMart and its ilk pay its fair share.

The flaw in your argument is that employers are somehow responsible for providing healthcare for their employees. If providing Americans with universal healthcare is a desired goal, why not do it through a government program financed by taxes?

If WalMart has to raise prices, guess who gets hurt the most? The poor. They are the ones who benefit the most from shopping there. Let the market work its magic (efficiency of allocating resources) and let government design the social safety net as well as other social services desired by the people, and fund those programs with the broadest base possible.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

@tdn

<snip>
Not only does Walmart tend to squeeze out the competition in many small towns, it uglifies America. It’s turing this country into one giant parking lot.** It narrows our choices to cheap plastic generic brands, and it limits us to products that are only approved by the Christian Right. And ultimately, it destroys healthy competition.**
<snip>

Soon they will squeeze out all other competition, then you will see slave wages and higher prices. One store. One store to rule them all. One store to find them. One store to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. In Bentonville where the shadows lie.

You’ve summed up my feelings nicely. In Coffeyville Kansas this is very apparent atm. They lost their hometown grocery store, (An IGA branch locally owned and operated.) which cashed checks that the banks wouldn’t cash, had a butcher to cut the meat for you, and was generally a nice store, locally owned which donated to community causes. I tried doing a search at the online version of their paper, but couldn’t find the editorial I’d read. The reason the store had to close was twofold. Although Coffeyville has a Wal-Mart, it’s not a Super Wal-Mart, and people were going out of town (half an hour’s drive away) to shop there and buy groceries. Either that or they’d go to a more expensive, not as nice Country Mart to get their groceries. Country Mart ended up buying them out to close them. It’s debated how long Country Mart will stay open, given the fact that it’s rumored (or confirmed?) that the Coffeyville Wal-Mart is set to become a Super Wal-Mart. :mad: I liked that store, when I had the chance I’d get groceries from them if we were in town anyway.

[Voyager]

@John Mace

The flaw in your argument is that employers are somehow responsible for providing healthcare for their employees. If providing Americans with universal healthcare is a desired goal, why not do it through a government program financed by taxes?

You’re absolutely right. I was just looking for something more easily implemented. Now a company like WalMart will oppose any such plan, since they get an advantage versus their rivals who do not use government subsidies. With my plan, maybe we could get WalMart to push for a better national health care system. Why GM and Ford aren’t now is beyond me.

If WalMart has to raise prices, guess who gets hurt the most? The poor. They are the ones who benefit the most from shopping there. Let the market work its magic (efficiency of allocating resources) and let government design the social safety net as well as other social services desired by the people, and fund those programs with the broadest base possible.

What percentage of sales do you think WalMart gets from the poor as opposed to the lower middle class? If WalMart chose to be socially responsible (hah) they could raise prices slightly less on the staples the poor used. But it would be far more efficient to direcly increase welfare services with the savings from no longer paying Medicaid for WalMart workers than funneling money through WalMart, with profit for the company taken out. And, to repeat, the chances of a good safety net increases when the advantages the low paying companies get from not having to pay their fair share get removed.

[Orual]

Walmart censors the music and movies they sell. In my opinion, that is a loathsome practice, so I will not shop there.

Everyone else can shop there if they want.

[xanthous]

Hey, I’m all for getting educated by this thread, but there’s no need for scolding- information is plenty, thanks!

So maybe I can make a tandoori recipe. Can I make sushi? Talk to someone who works there about an opera recording I like and ask for suggestions on something similar that would also appeal to me? Learn about a local poetry class? Buy a foreign film as a gift for a dear friend?

It’s not snobbery. It’s individualism, which is lost in the aisles of Wal-Mart, if you ask me. Because Wal-Mart sells to church-going middle america with 2.5 kids. I’m not in that category at all. My local record shop closed- couldn’t compete with the big boys. My favorite specialty grocery store closed- couldn’t compete with the big boys. But I could make you a laundry list of the items I can’t find at the big boys…so do I just give up what I love because now there’s Wal-Mart?

Information only, please!

[Odesio]

@annewaldron

I had an “alternative” (read: art school) graduate education. Which shaped me and my perspective a great deal. I’m the only one in my family who likes sushi, foreign films, fine art, poetry, opera, hand-made clothing, etc, etc, etc.

With the exception of poetry and hand made clothing we share similar interest though I don’t understand what that has to do with Wal-Mart. Is there a comparable retailer that sells sushi (that you’d eat), opera, fine art, poetry, foreign films (that aren’t wire-fu), and hand made clothing? If not, then maybe your problem really isn’t with Wal-Mart.

The basic point: I’m not going to find any of that at Wal-Mart. But if the few are going to have to succumb to the needs/desires of the many because of the going-away of mom/pops as they get sucked into the black hole of Wal-Mart (and others like it), I think that is a HUGE bummer.

Quite frankly I don’t believe Wal-Mart pushed the foreign film, sushi, opera, fine art, poetry, and hand made clothing retailers out of business. Those products were niche items for years before Wal-Mart existed and continue to be niche products today. Seriously, have you ever walked into Sears or Target and expected to find fine art and poetry? I can tell you from personal experience I’ve never seen those products in small town retailers that didn’t sell antiques.

Face it- you can’t make a Tandoori recipe with Wal-Mart ingredients. So are we going to be forced into becoming a Hamburger Helper culture because of corporations that are successful at exploiting capitalism?

That seems like a rather silly statement though perhaps there’s something special in your tandoori recipe I don’t know about. I checked out some recipes online and it looked like I could get the vast majority of ingredients at the Super Wal-Mart. You know what kind of cheese I can get at the two local grocery stores in my small town in Arkansas? Well I can’t get provolone, smoked gouda, muenster, real mozerella, or even some swiss cheese that isn’t “artifically flavored” unless I drive 40 mins. to the nearest Super Wal-Mart.

You’d think that by living in a rural area I might have better access to fresh veggies that taste great. Well, you’re right, but I can’t find them at the local grocery stores I gotta head to one of two farmer’s markets in town. I can get strawberries, corn, various peas, and all sorts of other goodies but things like cilantro can’t be found in the market or typically in the grocery stores, Super Wal-Mart to the rescue.

I don’t really care if someone doesn’t want to shop at Wal-Mart. If you don’t like spending time in line or the way the store is laid out then more power to you. What I don’t like is the snobbish attitude many people have towards Wal-Mart. “Ugh, those uneducated buffoons shop at Wal-Mart. Stupid plebs.”

Marc

[XT]

@annewaldron

So maybe I can make a tandoori recipe. Can I make sushi? Talk to someone who works there about an opera recording I like and ask for suggestions on something similar that would also appeal to me? Learn about a local poetry class? Buy a foreign film as a gift for a dear friend?

You can do all this at a local Mom and Pop store in a small town?? What store has all that in a small town under a single roof? Or are you talking about going to multiple stores around town (and what small towns not in easy driving distance to a large city has all that)? If so, ask yourself WHY those other stores went out of business (and was it really Walmart that drove them out?)…and why they should remain in business if they can’t compete. If there are enough folks who want to make sushi while listening to music and reading poetry as they watch a foreign film then those stores would remain viable.

@annewaldron

It’s not snobbery. It’s individualism, which is lost in the aisles of Wal-Mart, if you ask me.

Whats the practical difference between ‘snobbery’ and ‘individualism’ when we are talking about such eclectic tastes as yours? How many folks do you figure want all that from Mom and Pop stores (or even a super store) in a small town? Usually such things are reserved for the bigger cities (who are immune to the ravages of Walmart). I know you can do all those things on your list without even seeing a Walmart where I live…if you are willing to drive around some. My guess is, you can do most of those things on-line…and you obviously have a computer, no?

@annewaldron

Because Wal-Mart sells to church-going middle america with 2.5 kids. I’m not in that category at all. My local record shop closed- couldn’t compete with the big boys. My favorite specialty grocery store closed- couldn’t compete with the big boys. But I could make you a laundry list of the items I can’t find at the big boys…so do I just give up what I love because now there’s Wal-Mart?

Whats with this ‘church-going’ stuff? Granted I haven’t been in a Walmart in quite a while but I don’t remember any kind of religious theme to the store. As for the rest, I understand why you’d be upset. I was bummed when my favorite computer software company went tits up, was bummed when they cancelled my favorite TV show and bummed when my pro-sports team moved to a different city. Life is like that.

@annewaldron

Information only, please!

Well, you know I was mostly tongue in cheek with my last post. I worked off your other post but most of it wasn’t really aimed at you…or anyone really, just a parody of the anti-Walmart positions I’ve seen in other threads. Hope you didn’t take offense…none was intended.

-XT

[Shagnasty]

I think the idea of the great All-American main street of the past is largely a myth. If you were transported back to the average American town in the 60’s you would already see the decline starting even though Wal-Mart wasn’t a factor. I grew up in a very small town with a classic Main Street. My family owned a hardware/general store that my family opened in 1903. The store was in decline by the early 70’s despite best efforts. It was an eccentric place like many small town shops. If you wanted advice on which gun to buy, we had the place but the selection and prices weren’t that good. We didn’t have a Wal-Mart although there were two within 20 miles. The downtown simply withered away and is now practically dead. Our store hung on until 1985. It wasn’t really Wal-Mart that killed it. It was a combination of large stores with huge slections and low prices. The American shopping style has changed for good.

That is not to say that there aren’t great main streets still in existence. My town is a picture-perfect colonial town with a thriving downtown even though it is bordered on all sides by towns with big-box stores. The key is that our stores differentiate themselves with unusual products and exceptional service. There is still a market for that in one form or another most places. I have also seen thriving mainstreets in Wellseley, MA, Hanover, NH, Ruston, LA, and Woodstock, VT among many others. They can still work. I don’t see why people should be pressured to keep stores with little selection, mediocre quality, and higher prices open.

[RTFirefly]

@John Mace

There are plenty of places in-between LL Bean and WalMart, pricewise.

I’m sure there are. But I’m trying to operate within your alternative model of picking up the phone to shop somewhere besides Wal-Mart. Where are you shopping, and how? I raised this question earlier, but since I got no feedback, I continued with L.L. Bean, since their catalog finds its way to my mailbox.

I don’t understand your point. Do you begrudge a poor person the opportunity to buy a cheap DVD?

No, not at all. But I’m pointing out that the shopper that, say, has an extra $30 to spring for four of those DVDs, still hasn’t graduated to being able to shop by phone from L.L. Bean.

Of course a “decent” paying job and health insurance would be wonderful. Problem is, I don’t see people willing to pay for those things.

That’s what laws are for. Nobody ‘wants’ to pay for a minimum-wage hike, either, but they happen periodically anyway.

Yes, that was directed at the thread as a whole, as other people are making those arguments.

Fair 'nuff.

[XT]

@RTFirefly

I’m sure there are. But I’m trying to operate within your alternative model of picking up the phone to shop somewhere besides Wal-Mart. Where are you shopping, and how? I raised this question earlier, but since I got no feedback, I continued with L.L. Bean, since their catalog finds its way to my mailbox.

Doesn’t Sears and JC Penny both have full catalogs? Sears I’m sure of as we still get the catalog. I think Suncoast has a catalog for their videos/DvD’s. Sharper Image has a catalog service (there is another similar store who’s name escapes me that we order from occationally too). Lots of food places have catalog’s (Peperage Farms? Something like that). There are a LOT of places where you can order stuff via phone…everything from pizza kits to auto parts. If you are willing (and able) to go online there are even more options. I’m pretty confident that if you are willing to wait and pay for shipping there isn’t much at Walmart you couldn’t order via catalog or online at a website.

-XT

[Zabali_Clawbane]

@xtisme

<snip> I’m pretty confident that if you are willing to wait and pay for shipping there isn’t much at Walmart you couldn’t order via catalog or online at a website.

The disadvantage being that the shopper can’t look at and assess the item being purchased in person.