# Walmart makes the US tax system more progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901 "2010-12-21T01:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/1 "2010-12-21T01:41:01Z")
A couple of weeks ago, the Ohio legislature was debating a law which would: [ > [@](#): > > highlight those companies who pay their employees so little they must also receive public assistance, which drives up the cost of government. > > … > > The Youngstown Democrat said the biggest culprit is Walmart, where more than 15,000 of its workers in Ohio are on Medicaid, and more than 12,000 are receiving food stamps, with the annual bill to taxpayers exceeding $67 million. > > … > > The bill would have required the data to be used when considering giving state tax breaks or other business incentives for those companies. ]([http://salemnews.net/page/content.detail/id/535714/Bolon-casts-final-votes-in-offic---.html](http://salemnews.net/page/content.detail/id/535714/Bolon-casts-final-votes-in-offic---.html)) Republicans blocked the bill. What I find kind of interesting about this is that Walmart shoppers skew low income. Walmart’s wages are correspondingly low, then the employees go on public assistance, which is, as Republicans love to remind us, largely paid for by the wealthy. So rather than the poor paying more for Walmart products, the wealthy subsidize the low prices via taxation, then fight to defend the status quo. Note: While I think this is rather amusing, I also think it’s a really silly way to run a railroad and far from an ideal situation even if it does result in the wealthy paying more so that the poor pay less. So, the debate: Who actually benefits more from this system? Are the wealthy benefiting more despite paying more? Are the poor benefiting more despite earning less? Is it a wash? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/2 "2010-12-21T01:56:04Z")
The rich suffer: in all possible scenarios in all possible worlds it’s always the rich who suffer. They seem to mention it a lot. The least sacrificial scenario would be if the poor just gave _all_ their spare money to the rich after solely paying for all the taxes. But even then the rich would suffer just sitting down and worrying about awful people coming and trying to take some of their totally deserved. wealth. T’is a hard life. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/3 "2010-12-21T02:07:00Z")
Well, as more and more people are impoverished, it stands to reason that the tax system must become more progressive, as there are fewer and fewer people with sufficient income to pay taxes. It’s bizarre to see this as Walmart making the tax system more progressive, though. It’s a bit like arguing that the bubonic plague greatly reduced the death rate from cancer. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/4 "2010-12-21T02:12:27Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, as more and more people are impoverished, it stands to reason that the tax system must become more progressive, as there are fewer and fewer people with sufficient income to pay taxes. > > It’s bizarre to see this as Walmart making the tax system more progressive, though. It’s a bit like arguing that the bubonic plague greatly reduced the death rate from cancer. As I said in my note, I don’t think this is a GOOD effect, but hey, the plague DID reduce the death rate from cancer. It’s just as if some pro-cancer organization were spreading the plague! ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/5 "2010-12-21T02:20:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > As I said in my note, I don’t think this is a GOOD effect, but hey, the plague DID reduce the death rate from cancer. > > It’s just as if some pro-cancer organization were spreading the plague! It also raised the demand for labor, driving labor prices up, which increased the mobility and income of laborers. Good times all around. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/6 "2010-12-21T02:27:05Z")
This reminds me of the arguments put forward by the cigarette industry in an attempt to reduce the penalties in the big lawsuit. They argued that the plaintiff only presented the costs of smoking-related deaths, and not the the benefits. Among the benefits was lower costs to society of housing and medical care for the elderly, because of course the dead don’t need housing or medical care. Smoking reduced the scope of the emerging crisis of an aging population, and was therefor a benefit to society. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/7 "2010-12-21T02:39:27Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > The rich suffer: in all possible scenarios in all possible worlds it’s always the rich who suffer. > > They seem to mention it a lot. They sure do. And many of them rail against taxes. But the Walmartization of America system is one in which they are paying more in order to keep prices down at a store they don’t shop at. As if they are saying “Woe! Woe! We suffer so much! My god, how dare you suggest ways we could suffer less. Woe! Woe!” I mean sure, we have a number of these in the system, like health care costs, where the middle class and up are actually screwing themselves over. But in the case of Walmart, it’s actually backwards from the normal way. In health care, the wealthy think “Gotta keep taxes low” even if it really means costs go up. But in the Walmart case it seems to be “Gotta keep costs down” even if it really means taxes go up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/8 "2010-12-21T02:42:19Z")
I don’t know that it makes sense to talk about raw numbers rather than percents. Is Company A “better” than Walmart if it has few employees on assistance even if it has a larger percentage on assistance? And as long as Walmart is paying above the minumum wage, what’s the issue? The market sets the prices of the wage, with the state setting the minimum. What is the point of having a minimum wage if there is a problem when companies comply with it? As far as who benefits most, that would be next to impossible to determine. Do “the wealthy” shop much at Walmart? Do they shop at other places which have to keep their prices lower due to competition from Walmart? Perhaps there could be a graduate thesis in there somewhere, but until someone does the hard research to determine what is what, I’d say we’re all just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/9 "2010-12-21T03:02:27Z")
It’s more than just paying taxes. It’s also about power and control. Add all three together (taxes, power and control) and you have the cost of doing business. If that means the “wealthy” pay for this “welfare” through more taxes, it’s offset by the greatly diminished capacity for Walmart employees to challenge the greater power structure of society (and thus extract considerably more “welfare” from the “wealthy”). In other words, keep’em ignorant, barefoot and pregnant. They won’t know what they are missing. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/10 "2010-12-21T04:52:38Z")
Presumably these employees aren’t working such low-paying jobs because they prefer them; they’re doing so because there aren’t any better jobs available to them. So if their choice isn’t Walmart job vs. better job but rather Walmart job vs. no job, then the ones who are on public assistance with Walmart would presumably be on public assistance without Walmart. Indeed, more might be. So it’s not really accurate to say that Walmart is driving up the cost of government. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/11 "2010-12-21T05:03:05Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Presumably these employees aren’t working such low-paying jobs because they prefer them; they’re doing so because there aren’t any better jobs available to them. So if their choice isn’t Walmart job vs. better job but rather Walmart job vs. no job, then the ones who are on public assistance with Walmart would presumably be on public assistance without Walmart. Indeed, more might be. So it’s not really accurate to say that Walmart is driving up the cost of government. What if Walmart’s low-low prices\* drive better paying competitors out of the market and are only attainable via the existence of the taxpayer subsidizing the labor costs? \*I’ve seen arguments before that Walmart’s prices aren’t particularly low. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/12 "2010-12-21T05:15:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What if Walmart’s low-low prices\* drive better paying competitors out of the market and are only attainable via the existence of the taxpayer subsidizing the labor costs? I really don’t understand this. They are paying at or above minimum wage, right? Is there some principle that says that certain jobs must be paid above minimum wage? If so, why? At any event, I know you’ve put forth this assertion before, so if you want to prove it, please do so. Just throwing it out there as you did, without anything to back it up, is meaningless in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/13 "2010-12-21T05:20:43Z")
What, precisely, is it you want me to prove? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/14 "2010-12-21T05:25:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What, precisely, is it you want me to prove? You made an assertion disguised as a question. But that’s really not the salient point. What you really have a problem with is the minimum wage. Your unstated assumption is that no one who is working should have to rely on public assistance. So, just tell us what the minimum wage has to be to accomplish that. And then tell us what that will do to the unemployment rate. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/15 "2010-12-21T05:27:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You made an assertion disguised as a question. > > But that’s really not the salient point. What you really have a problem with is the minimum wage. Your unstated assumption is that no one who is working should have to rely on public assistance. So, just tell us what the minimum wage has to be to accomplish that. And then tell us what that will do to the unemployment rate. Well damn, John, since you really know what I’m thinking, you can just go ahead and write it out. It’s so nice having you around to tell me what I really mean. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/16 "2010-12-21T05:36:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well damn, John, since you really know what I’m thinking, you can just go ahead and write it out. It’s so nice having you around to tell me what I really mean. Oh, please. If you don’t think this is a problem., the what is the point of this thread? You said “While I think this is rather amusing, I also think it’s a really silly way to run a railroad”. If I got it wrong, why don’t you tell me what you meant. What makes it a silly way to run a railroad. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/17 "2010-12-21T05:41:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. If you don’t think this is a problem., the what is the point of this thread? So, the debate: Who actually benefits more from this system? Are the wealthy benefiting more despite paying more? Are the poor benefiting more despite earning less? Is it a wash? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/18 "2010-12-21T05:48:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, the debate: Who actually benefits more from this system? Are the wealthy benefiting more despite paying more? Are the poor benefiting more despite earning less? Is it a wash? I answered that in my first post: “As far as who benefits most, that would be next to impossible to determine. Do “the wealthy” shop much at Walmart? Do they shop at other places which have to keep their prices lower due to competition from Walmart? Perhaps there could be a graduate thesis in there somewhere, but until someone does the hard research to determine what is what, I’d say we’re all just guessing.” Emphasis added. Now, why is the current situation “a really silly way to run a railroad”. If you can’t or won’t explain that, then maybe it would be best to withdraw that statement. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/19 "2010-12-21T05:51:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I answered that in my first post: Then thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901/20 "2010-12-21T05:54:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > \*I’ve seen arguments before that Walmart’s prices aren’t particularly low. \ > [@](#): > > [Wal-Mart Stores Inc](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=WMT:US)., the world’s largest retailer, raised prices on hundreds of [toys](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=TOYS:US) this month, squeezing more out of sales during the biggest shopping period of the year. > > Wal-Mart managers in the U.S. received instructions to mark up an average of 1,800 types of toys per store, according to a company e-mail dated Nov. 30 obtained by Bloomberg News. The e- mail didn’t disclose specific increases. The prices were changed “to better enable your store and the company to have a successful [financial month](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=WMT:US),” according to the e-mail. > > The directive from Wal-Mart, which has about 3,800 U.S. stores, told managers to do the markups as soon as possible. The move may help Chief Executive Officer [Mike Duke](http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Mike%20Duke&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1&partialfields=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&lr=-lang_ja) fulfill his October prediction that sales in U.S. stores open at least a year will be positive this quarter, after six straight drops. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-15/wal-mart-raised-prices-on-toys-this-month-squeezing-more-out-of-holidays.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-15/wal-mart-raised-prices-on-toys-this-month-squeezing-more-out-of-holidays.html) \ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walmart-makes-the-us-tax-system-more-progressive/564901.md?page=2)